Forced Kneeling

[Motorhead]

If I could have my way as a MD, would set FT courses up similar to 3D archery.
* As in there is a few ways to get a clear path to target .. find the best suited and shoot !!

Alas we can't do that, but at times many MD's certainly keep it challenging

 

[Centercut]

Yes prone is allowed as stated above .... NO attached bipod and IIRC rifle butt may not contact the ground at any time.
Yea here out west, it would not be wise being we don't clear lanes that low & at times the folks shooting deadman position have issues with a clear path to target.

I think we forgot to mention “any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground”.

This, and not having attached bipods is why “prone” looks like it’s allowed, but in all reality it isn’t. I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

If I’m holding the butt in my fingers and my wrist or heel of my hand is touching the ground that should be ok by the rules, but is it? Probably a MD call since AAFTA left this intentionally vague I assume?

 

[beerthief]

I think we forgot to mention “any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground”.

This, and not having attached bipods is why “prone” looks like it’s allowed, but in all reality it isn’t. I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

If I’m holding the butt in my fingers and my wrist or heel of my hand is touching the ground that should be ok by the rules, but is it? Probably a MD call since AAFTA left this intentionally vague I assume?

good point . if prone your elbow's are on the ground . OR is prone in the rules where your belly is the last forward part to touch the ground ? just kidding around here .

 

[AirNGasman]

I think we forgot to mention “any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground”.

This, and not having attached bipods is why “prone” looks like it’s allowed, but in all reality it isn’t. I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

If I’m holding the butt in my fingers and my wrist or heel of my hand is touching the ground that should be ok by the rules, but is it? Probably a MD call since AAFTA left this intentionally vague I assume?

I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

Although I'm not (quite) dumb enough to dive into the abyss of how that wording might be interpreted, having been best friends at the time with the person responsible for the rule and wording I do know the intent of the rule. You can't rest the rifle butt or fore-end directly on your open or closed hand that is planted on the ground.

 

[Motorhead]

I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

Although I'm not (quite) dumb enough to dive into the abyss of how that wording might be interpreted, having been best friends at the time with the person responsible for the rule and wording I do know the intent of the rule. You can't rest the rifle butt or fore-end directly on your open or closed hand that is planted on the ground.

Nearly Impossible to enforce being done correctly unless a lane marshal followed every prone shooter

 

[Franklink]

Prone? A mini bipod that'll fall away from the gun when lifted seems to be kosher with the rules. And then drag a big enough elevated stage to lay down on and you're in business. (Stage necessary to get high enough to see the target.)

Come to think of it, a camping cot would be about right, and not weigh too much. And I don't believe there's a height restriction for the "seat" in Hunter. Hmmm.

Might be fun for one season, til the rules get changed. Lol

 

[Motorhead]

Prone? A mini bipod that'll fall away from the gun when lifted seems to be kosher with the rules. And then drag a big enough elevated stage to lay down on and you're in business. (Stage necessary to get high enough to see the target.)

Come to think of it, a camping cot would be about right, and not weigh too much. Hmmm.

A camp cot would NOT be legal IMO

 

[Franklink]

A camp cot would NOT be legal IMO

I'm being facetious.

But for the sake of argument, how is laying on an elevated stage different than sitting on one?

 

[Centercut]

I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

Although I'm not (quite) dumb enough to dive into the abyss of how that wording might be interpreted, having been best friends at the time with the person responsible for the rule and wording I do know the intent of the rule. You can't rest the rifle butt or fore-end directly on your open or closed hand that is planted on the ground.

I see your point Ron, but if that’s what was meant it would have been simple to state that exactly as you did above… why be vague? I’ve seen pretzel position with the gun resting on the leg which is resting on the ground and not a peep about that….

 

[Motorhead]

I see your point Ron, but if that’s what was meant it would have been simple to state that exactly as you did above… why be vague? I’ve seen pretzel position with the gun resting on the leg which is resting on the ground and not a peep about that….

Universally ... if you can sit like that all down side up etc .... you earned the right to rest on your leg to ground !!!

 

[Scotchmo]

Universally ... if you can sit like that all down side up etc .... you earned the right to rest on your leg to ground !!!

Though it’s possible to rest the support leg on the ground if you are flexible enough, it’s not technically legal according to AAFTA rules, so the typical deadman position does not do that. The support leg does not rest on the ground.

Cameron uses a right cross:

Mike uses a left cross:

Neither prone nor deadman positions are ever required or allowed in a forced position, so unlike kneeling, shouldn’t be any complaints.

 

[Motorhead]

Though it’s possible to rest the support leg on the ground if you are flexible enough, it’s not technically legal according to AAFTA rules, so the typical deadman position does not do that. The support leg does not rest on the ground.

Cameron uses a right cross:
View attachment 382816

Mike uses a left cross:
View attachment 382817

Neither prone nor deadman positions are ever required or allowed in a forced position, so unlike kneeling, shouldn’t be any complaints.

Scott we were actually good humor fooling around ... only way dirt is getting under a leg is up agaist a berm, rock etc ...

 

[Centercut]

Yeah, since the rules are so vague, the leg is connected to the butt. One part touching the ground. If you’re prone and heel of hand touched ground but gun is in your fingers, that’s a separate part of the body. Same same.
After all, parts is parts.

 

[BrazosbyNemo]

Shooting is a no impact sport which people can continue at an old age. Especially since FT uses scopes. From what I have witnessed there are a lot of older shooters in the FT crowd. In most cases they are always at the top of the leader board. So age are isn't necessarily the issue. At some point though it will catch up with you and the forced position shots are a good example. Too many rules have changed to cater to the older crowd. At some point it has to stop. I don’t mean the older crowd needs to stop shooting. In fact they are my favorite people at the match. They just need to realize at some point age is a factor and rules are rules and may not win every match Instead of trying to change the rules to keep them winning. We have changed a lot of rules in Hunter Class in the past 10 years to accommodate older shooters and it is now an equipment race and not what it was intended to be. If you want big scopes and bad ass rifles shoot Open. If you aren’t physically able then then shoot Hunter with modest rules and equipment. There is no shame in that. BTW I hate kneeling.

 

[scotton]

I've been marinating on this thing for a couple of weeks and here are my thoughts on forced kneeling:

First, let me say that I don't mind kneeling shots. I practice them a fair bit, I'm decent at them and I'm not mad when it's time for some kneeling.

But from a practical stand point, what are we doing? A growing minority of shooters are not capable (or willing) to shoot kneeling, so they have to shoot offhand or give the match director a doctors note to do some other form of "disadvantaged shooting".

The people that typically are in contention to win matches are pretty good at kneeling, so what we seem to be doing is thinning out the middle of the pack.

The rules for kneeling position are weird, arbitrary and difficult to follow or enforce. It's like we took this funny little shooting sport from the UK, totally Americanized it, but left this one little thing about kneeling in an awkward way for one lane a match.

The only argument I can see to justify forced kneeling lanes is so that people that compete at international WFTF competitions will have a chance to practice kneeling in competition. I think those 8-10 people are more than capable of practicing kneeling shots in their own time.

My proposal is to do away with the kneeling lanes and double up on the off-hand lanes. And before you say "people can just shoot the kneeling lanes off-hand if they want", well, no. Kneeling is easier (if you know what you are doing) so kneeling lane targets are typically harder than off-hand targets.

The great thing about my plan is that there doesn't need to be a rules change for this to happen. The only rule I can find for forced position lanes is under the Grand Prix rules, which says: "I. At least 10 but no more than 20 shots for the overall match must be Forced Position shots, with a minimum hit-zone of 3/4" and a maximum distance of 45 yards." It doesn't say that you have to split the forced position shots between off-hand and kneeling, just that there has to be 10-20% of forced position shots. They can all be off-hand! Think about it, match directors. No more kneeling rolls or rubber mats. No more crying and cussing from people with metal in their knees or a lifetime of bad lunch choices. No more long, rambling internet fights about kneeling. We can finally throw the tea into the harbor and say "No more kneeling lanes".

And all of you shooters that can't, don't or won't shoot kneeling, know that anytime someone makes a forced kneeling lane, they are doing it because they want to, not because they have to.

A little PS, we would have to change the rules for GP matches where kneeling is specified as part of the official shoot off procedure. Or it might be funny to leave the kneeling section in the shoot-off procedure. I'm good either way.

And a PPS, if we stopped with the kneeling lanes, I think it would be great to go to 25% for the off-hand shots. Bear in mind, I'm not a good off-hand shooter, but if you really want to separate the wheat from the chaff, that would do it.

 

[cavedweller]

You might increase the challenge by requiring the shooter to stand on one leg, too? That would really separate those with acrobatic ability from the pedestrians. I agree, match winners are often the ones who get the best standing and kneeling scores. I'm pretty bad at both positions, but standing requires no contortion.

I find that practicing my "drive by" / moving target technique enhances ANY chance i have at hitting ANYTHING in the forced lanes.

 

[Centercut]

I've been marinating on this thing for a couple of weeks and here are my thoughts on forced kneeling:

First, let me say that I don't mind kneeling shots. I practice them a fair bit, I'm decent at them and I'm not mad when it's time for some kneeling.

But from a practical stand point, what are we doing? A growing minority of shooters are not capable (or willing) to shoot kneeling, so they have to shoot offhand or give the match director a doctors note to do some other form of "disadvantaged shooting".

The people that typically are in contention to win matches are pretty good at kneeling, so what we seem to be doing is thinning out the middle of the pack.

The rules for kneeling position are weird, arbitrary and difficult to follow or enforce. It's like we took this funny little shooting sport from the UK, totally Americanized it, but left this one little thing about kneeling in an awkward way for one lane a match.

The only argument I can see to justify forced kneeling lanes is so that people that compete at international WFTF competitions will have a chance to practice kneeling in competition. I think those 8-10 people are more than capable of practicing kneeling shots in their own time.

My proposal is to do away with the kneeling lanes and double up on the off-hand lanes. And before you say "people can just shoot the kneeling lanes off-hand if they want", well, no. Kneeling is easier (if you know what you are doing) so kneeling lane targets are typically harder than off-hand targets.

The great thing about my plan is that there doesn't need to be a rules change for this to happen. The only rule I can find for forced position lanes is under the Grand Prix rules, which says: "I. At least 10 but no more than 20 shots for the overall match must be Forced Position shots, with a minimum hit-zone of 3/4" and a maximum distance of 45 yards." It doesn't say that you have to split the forced position shots between off-hand and kneeling, just that there has to be 10-20% of forced position shots. They can all be off-hand! Think about it, match directors. No more kneeling rolls or rubber mats. No more crying and cussing from people with metal in their knees or a lifetime of bad lunch choices. No more long, rambling internet fights about kneeling. We can finally throw the tea into the harbor and say "No more kneeling lanes".

And all of you shooters that can't, don't or won't shoot kneeling, know that anytime someone makes a forced kneeling lane, they are doing it because they want to, not because they have to.

A little PS, we would have to change the rules for GP matches where kneeling is specified as part of the official shoot off procedure. Or it might be funny to leave the kneeling section in the shoot-off procedure. I'm good either way.

And a PPS, if we stopped with the kneeling lanes, I think it would be great to go to 25% for the off-hand shots. Bear in mind, I'm not a good off-hand shooter, but if you really want to separate the wheat from the chaff, that would do it.

I agree. I think we should even take it a step further. Since most matches are won by the forced position lanes, just do away with everything else and have two or three forced position standing lanes.
This makes it easier on the MD, takes less time to set up, much less time to shoot, and you get the same overall results with the best off hand shooters winning which is the whole point of FT, to see who’s the best off hand (FT) shooter.
Now you can show up, take less than a half hour to shoot your match, and go play a round of golf. Think about it, you're out golfing and drinking beers with your buddies, and the wife thinks you're at an FT (off hand) match.

All kidding aside, I’m glad that for Extreme FT we specified two things.
1. Forced position lanes are not required.
2. If Forced position lanes are used, they must be standing with a bipod.
Easy uncomplicated rules, fair to all, easy day…

 

[steve123]

I agree. I think we should even take it a step further. Since most matches are won by the forced position lanes, just do away with everything else and have two or three forced position standing lanes.
This makes it easier on the MD, takes less time to set up, much less time to shoot, and you get the same overall results with the best off hand shooters winning which is the whole point of FT, to see who’s the best off hand (FT) shooter.
Now you can show up, take less than a half hour to shoot your match, and go play a round of golf. Think about it, you're out golfing and drinking beers with your buddies, and the wife thinks you're at an FT (off hand) match.

All kidding aside, I’m glad that for Extreme FT we specified two things.
1. Forced position lanes are not required.
2. If Forced position lanes are used, they must be standing with a bipod.
Easy uncomplicated rules, fair to all, easy day…

In a funny way there is a lot truth in this post.

Well put Mike!

 

[Motorhead]

All kidding aside, I’m glad that for Extreme FT we specified two things.
1. Forced position lanes are not required.
2. If Forced position lanes are used, they must be standing with a bipod.
Easy uncomplicated rules, fair to all, easy day…

1) There should be a More difficult sub section to game played ... unlike years of social programing, not everyone is special, a winner etc .. Earn it by having a skill others have not yet mastered ... Otherwise similar to EBR it is more a LUCK game than defined skill.
2) While not agreeing .. does make the most sense

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[Franklink]

Typical larger match has something like 52 free position shots, 4 offhand, and 4 kneelers. For a 60 shot match.

The winner will be the person that knocks down the most targets. Or in other words, the most well-rounded shooter, with the best skills from all three positions.

Yes, the forced position shots are often the determining factor seperating 1st from 2nd. Those highest two scoring shooters also had to also knock down 52/52 shots from their bumbag or shooting sticks. You start missing free position shots and you're not even in the running for the forced position ones to matter. And there are a lot more free position than forced position. (6.5:1 in this example). In other words, there are 6.5x more "regular" shots than forced position shots.

Let's not pretend ft matches are just offhand matches. You gotta do everything right 52/52 times (or similar) before the offhanders or kneelers even matter.

Anybody not happy with their performance in the forced position shots should spend more time practicing offhand and kneelers, and less time griping about offhand and kneelers.