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Forced Kneeling

Kneeling has its place in the FIELD if your TARGET is a rabbit on the other side of tall grass and you need a position higher than sitting, where standing is not the optimal choice. I would think this hunting situation is in the spirit of the game, and kneeling has its place.

Some of the restrictions listed in the rules are somewhat strict compared to what you might do in the field. I would think it should be acceptable to turn your foot sideways and sit on it. Like this position.
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Maybe clarify other types of less than ideal kneeling positions are allowed too, where there is no arm contact with the leg. Although the left arm is not on the knee/leg, I don't think there is an advantage to the arm free floating in the air. This position could be considered an acceptable middle ground between kneeling (as defined in the rules) OR standing. Nothing in the rules seem to indicate your foot has to touch the butt. If the arm were in contact with the leg, then it seems like it meets the definition of kneeling described in the rulebook.

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If there are enough people that wants a rule change, or clarifications for alternate and acceptable positions, maybe emailing the AAFTA for their input and decisions to get them to explicitly identify alternatives in the rulebook. Although alternatives are at the match director's discretion, it is not a good experience to have to plead your case to every match director you encounter, it would be better to have common alternatives identified in the rules.

Although, if something is out of the ordinary, I could see individual approval from the AAFTA to indicate a certain position or aid be allowable via some kind of permissions slip. An example, I shot 3-position rifle with a guy that was missing part of his leg from the knee down. He had a special device he sat on to accommodate his kneeing position, and a permission slip from the NRA indicating he could use that device.
 
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I agree, the matches that you are attending should be harder. Our ASC match last week was a 34 Troyer with no kneelers and it didn't get cleaned. Even when we used to set easier matches, I don't recall them getting cleaned by anyone. I'm not trying to diminish your shooting abilities (which are apparently awesome), but I do think that your opinion on kneelers might be affected by the difficulty of the matches you are shooting.

Part of what I'm trying to do here is separate kneeling and off-hand. Off-hand has a place in most shooting sports and field shooting. Everyone who has shot a rifle has shot off-hand at some point. Kneeling is a carry over from 3 position shooting that was jammed into field target because British people are weird. (Sorry, Brits, but you know you are.)

Lastly, there is a difference between people that don't like kneelers because they are too lazy to practice and people that are not capable of shooting in the kneeling position due to metal parts that have been introduced to their knee, back, neck or ankle. Luckily, I am capable of assuming the kneeling position and I practice it regularly (and I'm ok at it). But it still stops me down when I'm in the middle of a match, having fun shooting some pew pews with my buds, and we come to a lane that says "now you have to put your knee exactly here, your foot exactly here, don't do that with your wrist, over the dumpster, off the back board, nothing but net". It's just tiresome. Granted, with all of my practice I still have the grace of a fat lady in roller skates trying to climb stairs. I think this is the crux of my problem with kneeling. It lacks dignity. You can suck at off-hand (and I do) but at least you can shoot off-hand with dignity and flair, even if you don't hit anything. Kneeling just feels like someone somewhere is making fun of you.

I don't shoot kneeling because I can't but I don't complain. I wish I could because it's better than offhand any day. I just shoot it off hand and live with the results. You know right before I got out of prs rimfire because of my ruptured discs I would be at matches and my back would flare up at awkward positions and I would quit that stage. MDs would try and say well you can just shoot from one position and that's fine. Now this was small local matches not big regional stuff. I told them no I would do what I could and take zeros on the rest of the stage. It's not fair to the other guys that have to follow the rules that I get a pass because of pain. If you can't do it suck it up and move on and shoot it offhand and then put your passy back in your mouth and go to next stage.

Jon
 
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Kneeling has its place in the FIELD if your TARGET is a rabbit on the other side of tall grass and you need a position higher than sitting, where standing is not the optimal choice. I would think this hunting situation is in the spirit of the game, and kneeling has its place.

Some of the restrictions listed in the rules are somewhat strict compared to what you might do in the field. I would think it should be acceptable to turn your foot sideways and sit on it. Like this position.
View attachment 385340

Maybe clarify other types of less than ideal kneeling positions are allowed too, where there is no arm contact with the leg. Although the left arm is not on the knee/leg, I don't think there is an advantage to the arm free floating in the air. This position could be considered an acceptable middle ground between kneeling (as defined in the rules) OR standing. Nothing in the rules seem to indicate your foot has to touch the butt. If the arm were in contact with the leg, then it seems like it meets the definition of kneeling described in the rulebook.

View attachment 385325

If there are enough people that wants a rule change, or clarifications for alternate and acceptable positions, maybe emailing the AAFTA for their input and decisions to get them to explicitly identify alternatives in the rulebook. Although alternatives are at the match director's discretion, it is not a good experience to have to plead your case to every match director you encounter, it would be better to have common alternatives identified in the rules.

Although, if something is out of the ordinary, I could see individual approval from the AAFTA to indicate a certain position or aid be allowable via some kind of permissions slip. An example, I shot 3-position rifle with a guy that was missing part of his leg from the knee down. He had a special device he sat on to accommodate his kneeing position, and a permission slip from the NRA indicating he could use that device.

I emailed the AAFTA Board Of Governors about forced kneeling (and another issue) the day before I started this thread that, as I'd hoped, took on a life all it's own. While I readily admit petitioning against forced kneeling is self-serving because I can't attain that position without great pain and RISK OF INJURY, my self-interest is secondary to that of what is best for Field Target.

I'd hoped the few Governors that pay any attention to the Field Target section of this forum might pay particular attention to this thread meant to highlight the fact that somewhere around half (possibly MORE) of active Field Target shooters would prefer forced kneeling go away. This thread supports that number, as have a couple polls I've taken at different FT venues; and as will similar polls taken at any FT venue.

So what makes a rule a bad rule? 1) When it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 2) When the majority of those it affects disagree with it because it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 3) MOST IMPORTANTLY, when it is, or becomes, counter-productive and/or SO counter-productive as to create damage to the purpose it purportedly serves.

In my opinion, a game that has always striven to find ways to grow its popularity, including attempting to appeal to younger participants, but has failed to accomplish both to such degrees that it cannot be ignored the average age of Field Target participants is increasing every year, it might be not only closed-minded, but a bad idea to ignore the fact that a growing number (or majority?) of the participants that still participate don't like participating at disadvantage to a shrinking minority of younger participants. Some perhaps to such a degree as to decide to leave the game because of a forced position that serves no positive purpose (makes no sense).
 
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I emailed the AAFTA Board Of Governors about forced kneeling (and another issue) the day before I started this thread that, as I'd hoped, took on a life all it's own. While I readily admit petitioning against forced kneeling is self-serving because I can't attain that position without great pain and RISK OF INJURY, my self-interest is secondary to that of what is best for Field Target.

I'd hoped the few Governors that pay any attention to the Field Target section of this forum might pay particular attention to this thread meant to highlight the fact that somewhere around half (possibly MORE) of active Field Target shooters would prefer forced kneeling go away. This thread supports that number, as have a couple polls I've taken at different FT venues; and as will similar polls take at any FT venue.

So what makes a rule a bad rule? 1) When it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 2) When the majority of those it affects disagree with it because it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 3) MOST IMPORTANTLY, when it is, or becomes, counter-productive and/or SO counter-productive as to create damage to the purpose it purportedly serves.

In my opinion, a game that has always striven to find ways to grow its popularity, including attempting to appeal to younger participants, but has failed to accomplish both to such degrees that it cannot be ignored the average age of Field Target participants is increasing every year, it might be not only closed-minded, but a bad idea to ignore the fact that a growing number (or majority?) of the participants that still participate don't like participating at disadvantage to a shrinking minority of younger participants. Some perhaps to such a degree as to decide to leave the game because of a forced position that serves no positive purpose (makes no sense).

While I disagree about them serving no purpose, because they very obviously test the skill of shooting from that position, I do (unfortunately) agree with your assessment that making it easier (by omitting kneelers) better serves the current majority in field target.

In another couple of years do the offhand go away too then?

And a few years after that we make it AAFTA but with a "B" for benchrest squeezed in that acronym somewhere? If everyone is shooting from a bench (versus bumbag or bucket) than the physical challenges would be ever further reduced. Argument in the future being that the bumbag/bucket were simply too physically challenging for the current age of participants.

This is a slippery slope.....
 
Field target would certainly grow if you got rid of the forced positions. Anything easier will have greater appeal to the masses….as there are far more shooters with mid and low level skill sets than high level.

The only purpose a real competition serves is to separate its competitors by their skill levels.

Removing aspects of the competition that require skill sets that most don’t want to spend the time to acquire is counterproductive to the goal of real competition.

The real problem is that those without the desire to practice or the desire to overcome a physical disability want to be recognized as equals to those that do. Nothing new there.

In todays might makes right world, it will come as no surprise to me if the game is someday diluted for the purpose of satisfying the less talented majority.

Mike
 
Sorry, Brits, but you know you are.)

I've followed this thread with great interest, totally bemused by the American version of FT.

I shot UK rules FT with most European shooters in a few countries.
Once I became a bit less mobile I had to quit FT. That's life.
No moaning, no flexing of rules just getting on with life, still enjoying meeting the guys and helping out when I can.

Yes, us Europeans are as weird as the Brits.😉.
 
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Rules are a BASE LINE for how any specific game / sport is played. They apply to EVERYONE, if & when you decide to enter the game / sport you also accept this to be a Non Negotiable FACT. Whining & griping about all that is unjust / not fair or i can't comply because :rolleyes: needs to be ignored as it is just sniffling & excuse making.
Play by the rules or don't play .... Can't comply with a shot specific requirement THEN DO NOTHING .. Not do what best serves ones own self interest.

Hard line ... ABSOLUTELY, Fair to ALL by letter of the written rules ... ABSOLUTELY
 
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Rules are a BASE LINE for how any specific game / sport is played. They apply to EVERYONE, if & when you decide to enter the game / sport you also accept this to be a Non Negotiable FACT. Whining & griping about all that is unjust / not fair or i can't comply because :rolleyes: needs to be ignored as it is just sniffling & excuse making.
Play by the rules or don't play .... Can't comply with a shot specific requirement THEN DO NOTHING .. Not do what best serves ones own self interest.

Hard line ... ABSOLUTELY, Fair to ALL by letter of the written rules ... ABSOLUTELY
I hear you Scott, but less than ten years ago whining and sniveling about prone by fat guys with beer bellies that couldn’t go prone got those rules changed. How is that any different than the kneeling debate? Hmmmm…. Good for the goose?
 
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I hear you Scott, but less than ten years ago whining and sniveling about prone by fat guys with beer bellies that couldn’t go prone got those rules changed. How is that any different than the kneeling debate? Hmmmm…. Good for the goose?
The CANCEL CULTURE we find ourselves living in very well may prevail in time. As stated previous the last 25 years of programming that Everyone is special, A Winner with just participation will indeed Dumb down every sport. As just one person in the FT world my opinion is my own and evolution will do what it does ... Advance or go extinct. I won't be here to see it, because soon as Handicaps or the Dumbing down for less capable shooters becomes a reality I'm likely gone. At 65 I've had some good years in FT and know I need to try harder each season and overcome physical challenges not present years past .. it's called ageing out. Not griping, being self aware is more like it.

If shooters of Air guns wish to have competitive venues that best serve older or the physically challenged .... BUILD IT & They will come.
JUST LEAVE the AAFTA Field Target format as it now is structured. If that structure can't support itself in time it fails & goes away. REPLACED by some other AG shooting sport or activity.

Just my thoughts ...
 
The CANCEL CULTURE we find ourselves living in very well may prevail in time. As stated previous the last 25 years of programming that Everyone is special, A Winner with just participation will indeed Dumb down every sport. As just one person in the FT world my opinion is my own and evolution will do what it does ... Advance or go extinct. I won't be here to see it, because soon as Handicaps or the Dumbing down for less capable shooters becomes a reality I'm likely gone. At 65 I've had some good years in FT and know I need to try harder each season and overcome physical challenges not present years past .. it's called ageing out. Not griping, being self aware is more like it.

If shooters of Air guns wish to have competitive venues that best serve older or the physically challenged .... BUILD IT & They will come.
JUST LEAVE the AAFTA Field Target format as it now is structured. If that structure can't support itself in time it fails & goes away. REPLACED by some other AG shooting sport or activity.

Just my thoughts ...
Scott, I’m 65 also. I think you missed my point. WHY was it ok to change the rules less than ten years ago, and now it’s not? How many that are now all for keeping the rules static were part of the group that whines enough to change them less than ten years ago regarding prone with attached bipods? Kinda hard to justify having your cake and eating it too. 😉
 
Scott, I’m 65 also. I think you missed my point. WHY was it ok to change the rules less than ten years ago, and now it’s not? How many that are now all for keeping the rules static were part of the group that whines enough to change them less than ten years ago regarding prone with attached bipods? Kinda hard to justify having your cake and eating it too. 😉
PRONE is a very difficult position to ENFORCE technique compliance. What can touch ground, body parts used to inhanse stablity etc your dang near hiding by the actual position. As such it is very easy to achieve near BENCH REST stability while lying on the ground.
Many were using attached bipods & even when unattached the overall position was so much more stable it was ( Exaggerated ) light years ahead of other positions the majority were utilizing. It was a clear required rule change as very few can shoot prone and an easy position to cheat at.
 
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PRONE is a very difficult position to ENFORCE technique compliance. What can touch ground, body parts used to inhanse stablity etc your dang near hiding by the actual position. As such it is very easy to achieve near BENCH REST stability while lying on the ground.
Many were using attached bipods & even when unattached the overall position was so much more stable it was ( Exaggerated ) light years ahead of other positions the majority were utilizing. It was a clear required rule change as very few can shoot prone and an easy position to cheat at.
So, kinda like kneeling compared to off hand? You made the OPs point for him.
 
Without being silly, FT is (mostly) a free position game. It’s to find out the best FT shooter in what ever legal position they choose for any given target. True that each Division allows different combinations of support/shooting aids. And typical shooting positions have evolved to use all of the allowed aids. But you are still free to use or not use them as you see fit.

When I shoot in Hunter Division, I don’t use a bucket and sticks.

When I shoot in Open Division, I don’t use a harness or dial a 50x scope.

When I shoot in WFTF Division, I don’t use a shooting jacket or dial a 50x scope.

So FT is a free position game, except that current rules require a small percentage of defined/designated positions at some types of matches because…..well, I can’t really answer that.
Could it be that when afield and actually hunting, there are scenarios in which you WILL have to take an offhand and or kneeling shot at times? Either that or let your few seconds of take opportunity go. When it’s eat or not, I’m gonna take an offhand or kneeler.
 
Making the forced position shots super easy, 2" KZ at < 15yds, now they are freebees.
See how many dread them when they are easy offhand shots and not match deciders.

Hell, add some positions, the back position, prone, tree side hold... all easy and for the fun of it expanding on potential field condition opportunities.
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It would ALL fall back on the Hierarchy of difficulty .... Can't Creedmore, Go Back, Can't Kneel, go Offhand .... Can't offhand just standing there .... Find a different shooting game or just pass on that shot/s. It is not by design to be a game of easy .. But hard and those that can do hard make the top scores.
 
So, kinda like kneeling compared to off hand? You made the OPs point for him.
Not at all .... watch near any FT match club or GP etc .... Forced positions are FAR & AWAY complied with and shot as designated over opting out to a harder miens or not taking the shots ... FACT Those bitching are a VERY small minority ... FACT
 
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Could it be that when afield and actually hunting, there are scenarios in which you WILL have to take an offhand and or kneeling shot at times? Either that or let your few seconds of take opportunity go. When it’s eat or not, I’m gonna take an offhand or kneeler.
Hold there quarry! While l was in stealth mode & quietly moving through here I spotted you 😊! Let me ease down on my arse and get stable on this bipod. Don’t you move now……….

IMG_1311.jpeg
 
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PRONE is a very difficult position to ENFORCE technique compliance. What can touch ground, body parts used to inhanse stablity etc your dang near hiding by the actual position. As such it is very easy to achieve near BENCH REST stability while lying on the ground.
Many were using attached bipods & even when unattached the overall position was so much more stable it was ( Exaggerated ) light years ahead of other positions the majority were utilizing. It was a clear required rule change as very few can shoot prone and an easy position to cheat at.
The attached bipod vs unattached was not about enforcement or cheating. It’s purpose was to make the position inconvenient enough so the it was less desirable. We are still allowed to shoot prone. The enforcement problems were brought about by the other rule added to hamper prone shooters. The banning of the prone position only applied to the forced positions, and in that case, no bipods were allowed, and enforcement was not an issue.
 
It was interesting watching competitors at the forced prone lane at the 2014 West Coast GP. Some struggled with it (and complained) and others no problem. Kind of like we are starting to do with kneeling.

I still like the kneeling lanes and sometimes look at it as an opportunity to pick up a point or two. At 66 years I’m starting to feel the worn joints and associated pain a lot more. Keeping at a healthy weight helps slow the decline. I make a conscience effort to match my calorie intake to my exertion levels. Not always easy as good food (ice cream included) is one of life’s great pleasures. At this point in life, I feel that spending time working on my conditioning (including some stretching) is of greater benefit to my scores than additional shooting practice. Conditioning should come first, though the shooting practice would be more fun.

I guess I can see a purpose to the positional lanes. If I’m down a point or two from my competitor, with one lane to go, I don’t want that last lane to be too easy. I’d rather it be a very difficult target, or a kneeling lane. It gives me hope….that they will miss it and I’ll get a chance to make up the points.

I know it seems unsportsmanlike to want someone to miss, but in a competition, when it comes down to the end, it happens.
 
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