Forced Kneeling

[thane]

... 'coup de gras' on a forced lane is some high drama!
Fortunately the damage is self inflicted...

 

[scotton]

I emailed the AAFTA Board Of Governors about forced kneeling (and another issue) the day before I started this thread that, as I'd hoped, took on a life all it's own. While I readily admit petitioning against forced kneeling is self-serving because I can't attain that position without great pain and RISK OF INJURY, my self-interest is secondary to that of what is best for Field Target.

I'd hoped the few Governors that pay any attention to the Field Target section of this forum might pay particular attention to this thread meant to highlight the fact that somewhere around half (possibly MORE) of active Field Target shooters would prefer forced kneeling go away. This thread supports that number, as have a couple polls I've taken at different FT venues; and as will similar polls take at any FT venue.

So what makes a rule a bad rule? 1) When it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 2) When the majority of those it affects disagree with it because it serves no positive purpose (makes no sense). 3) MOST IMPORTANTLY, when it is, or becomes, counter-productive and/or SO counter-productive as to create damage to the purpose it purportedly serves.

In my opinion, a game that has always striven to find ways to grow its popularity, including attempting to appeal to younger participants, but has failed to accomplish both to such degrees that it cannot be ignored the average age of Field Target participants is increasing every year, it might be not only closed-minded, but a bad idea to ignore the fact that a growing number (or majority?) of the participants that still participate don't like participating at disadvantage to a shrinking minority of younger participants. Some perhaps to such a degree as to decide to leave the game because of a forced position that serves no positive purpose (makes no sense).

But remember, there is no rule forcing shooters to shoot kneeling. The match directors are the ones responsible for kneeling lanes. The rules say that there have to be a certain percentage of forced position shots (at GP matches). The rules also outline the two types of forced position shots and how to shoot them. So anytime you see a kneeling lane and it makes you feel a certain way, don't yell at AAFTA, yell at the match director.

And if you think field target is getting too easy, you are doing it wrong. Go shoot WFTF springer (or even hunter springer) and come back and tell me how easy this game is. Unless you are Cameron Kerndt, clearly this thing is too easy for him.

If you are reading this, it's because I managed to stop myself from agreeing with Ron about rules, which would have caused a sudden and overwhelming apocalypse. Please don't call me a hero, it's embarrassing. I'm just a guy. A bored guy. A bored guy that likes to argue with other bored guys on the internet. Does that make me a hero? Probably.

Now I have to get some sleep so I can shoot EFT tomorrow. There won't be any kneeling lanes, so I assume we will all clean the course. Or at least D-Wall will, which is funny because he's pretty good at shooting kneeling. I wonder if there is an inverse relationship between your skill at shooting kneeling and the distance from the top of your head to the ground? Probably. Tall guys have it so hard in this world.

 

[Franklink]

And if you think field target is getting too easy, you are doing it wrong. Go shoot WFTF springer (or even hunter springer) and come back and tell me how easy this game is. Unless you are Cameron Kerndt, clearly this thing is too easy for him.

AGREED. I started in Hunter with a springer in the 12x scope days. That's a challenge. My time there was a never-ending equipment battle, to the point that the frustration made it not fun. Multiple guns, multiple scopes, multiple mounts, ALWAYS changing impact point. And no amount of practice can fix an impact point that changes with altitude and temperature and moon phases and just flat out cuz it wants to. I'm in awe at Cameron's ability to score as high as he does with a springer. Somehow he's figured out how to keep them performing when most (myself included) can't crack that nut.

The only harder field target class I've shot than Hunter Piston with a 12x scope is Unlimited Pistol, sans deadman. When shot without bending yourself in half to collapse onto your thighs like a sack of potatoes.... talk about no support aids. You and a gun, and the gun doesn't have a butt stock. Good luck!

Good luck @ EFT tomorrow. Enjoy the standing bipod shots. They're almost offhand, but not.

 

[zx10wall]

AGREED. I started in Hunter with a springer in the 12x scope days. That's a challenge. My time there was a never-ending equipment battle, to the point that the frustration made it not fun. Multiple guns, multiple scopes, multiple mounts, ALWAYS changing impact point. And no amount of practice can fix an impact point that changes with altitude and temperature and moon phases and just flat out cuz it wants to. I'm in awe at Cameron's ability to score as high as he does with a springer. Somehow he's figured out how to keep them performing when most (myself included) can't crack that nut.

The only harder field target class I've shot than Hunter Piston with a 12x scope is Unlimited Pistol, sans deadman. When shot without bending yourself in half to collapse onto your thighs like a sack of potatoes.... talk about no support aids. You and a gun, and the gun doesn't have a butt stock. Good luck!

Good luck @ EFT tomorrow. Enjoy the standing bipod shots. They're almost offhand, but not.

I almost cleaned it. Missed 2 “almost offhanders”! Dadgumit!! We should trade all those almost for kneelers

 

[beerthief]

"Kneeling just feels like someone somewhere is making fun of you." To me this is what i think of the forced position AS DESCRIBED in the rules . this thing about the toe is bent and the sole is straight vertical and no sitting on the heal is totally uncomfortable even for a non disabled fit person that exercises .

There is no hunter i have ever seen that does not sit on his foot on the ground , its not the kneeler i object to it is the forced position of that foot .

 

[Cloud9AG]

"Kneeling just feels like someone somewhere is making fun of you." To me this is what i think of the forced position AS DESCRIBED in the rules . this thing about the toe is bent and the sole is straight vertical and no sitting on the heal is totally uncomfortable even for a non disabled fit person that exercises .

There is no hunter i have ever seen that does not sit on his foot on the ground , its not the kneeler i object to it is the forced position of that foot .

FT moved away from the hunting simulation game LONG ago. It is now just a competitive target shooting game. So don’t shoot if or shoot it standing. I’m going to continue to kneel per the rules for as long as I can.

 

[Motorhead]

I almost cleaned it. Missed 2 “almost offhanders”! Dadgumit!! We should trade all those almost for kneelers

I'll take kneelers over off handers at ANY FT match !! ... sadly we can't go to an easier discipline when challenged

 

[Franklink]

I almost cleaned it. Missed 2 “almost offhanders”! Dadgumit!! We should trade all those almost for kneelers

The driving force for making standing bipods the standard for AOA sponsored American Field Target matches is a notorious true offhand hater. His argument always being that the offhand shots shouldn't determine the winner. What's funny about that is that last year at EBRs American Field Target event (which is the Grand Prix finals) I went 5/8 or 6/8 (if memory serves) on the standing bipod shots. That was the first lane and I figured I was already out of the running for missing those two-i said something to that effect and the AOA staffer running that lane said that that 6/8 was the best he'd seen yet that day.

I ended up in the top three for .22 class.

Poing being that the hardest shots are typically going to determine the match winners.

 

[thomasair]

The driving force for making standing bipods the standard for AOA sponsored American Field Target matches is a notorious true offhand hater. His argument always being that the offhand shots shouldn't determine the winner. What's funny about that is that last year at EBRs American Field Target event (which is the Grand Prix finals) I went 5/8 or 6/8 (if memory serves) on the standing bipod shots. That was the first lane and I figured I was already out of the running for missing those two-i said something to that effect and the AOA staffer running that lane said that that 6/8 was the best he'd seen yet that day.

I ended up in the top three for .22 class.

Poing being that the hardest shots are typically going to determine the match winners.

Need to get rid of those hard shots so guys that can’t practice as much have an equal chance at winning.

 

[Scotchmo]

"Kneeling just feels like someone somewhere is making fun of you." To me this is what i think of the forced position AS DESCRIBED in the rules . this thing about the toe is bent and the sole is straight vertical and no sitting on the heal is totally uncomfortable even for a non disabled fit person that exercises .

There is no hunter i have ever seen that does not sit on his foot on the ground , its not the kneeler i object to it is the forced position of that foot .

I kinda agree with you about that. It’s telling that they require there be a kneeling roll available at all GP kneeling lanes. Would it be more in keeping with the “spirit” of field shooting to say you must kneel, but keep the rule specifications to a minimum, with no added supports allowed (no bipods, no jackets, no rolls, etc.) and let the shooter figure out the best foot/arm/hand position for their ability/comfort/stability?

 

[Cloud9AG]

@beerthief just curious if you have shot an FT match previously.

 

[beerthief]

i admit i have only shot practice FT rounds , i am 78 and just too slow setting up /taking down moving to the next lane , i would hold up a match , but in practicing in the lanes i think too much about IF my foot is in the correct position and if i am holding that position while i shoot. AND IT IS DAMM UNCOMFORTABLE

 

[Cloud9AG]

i admit i have only shot practice FT rounds , i am 78 and just too slow setting up /taking down moving to the next lane , i would hold up a match , but in practicing in the lanes i think too much about IF my foot is in the correct position and if i am holding that position while i shoot. AND IT IS DAMM UNCOMFORTABLE

You should try and shoot a real match sometime, and if you can’t kneel per the rules, shoot it offhand and move on to the other free position lanes. If you clear the rest of the course, and the offhand lane, you could win the match without the kneeling lane.

 

[beerthief]

You should try and shoot a real match sometime, and if you can’t kneel per the rules, shoot it offhand and move on to the other free position lanes. If you clear the rest of the course, and the offhand lane, you could win the match without the kneeling lane.

ok Invicta is only two hours drive , and i know a few of the guys there

 

[Franklink]

Need to get rid of those hard shots so guys that can’t practice as much have an equal chance at winning.

Practicing is for cheaters.

 

[Centercut]

Honestly, as long as you’re in some semblance of kneeling, no one will say anything. Nothing to worry about.

 

[humbled.ag]

A couole thoughts about the thread.

If you like spending more time complaining than practicing maybe competition isn't for you.

No one is stopping you from starting your own club or event to shoot matches how you wish. As a matter of fact at least two participants in this thread have done this.

Happy Labor Day weekend!

 

[scotton]

i admit i have only shot practice FT rounds , i am 78 and just too slow setting up /taking down moving to the next lane , i would hold up a match , but in practicing in the lanes i think too much about IF my foot is in the correct position and if i am holding that position while i shoot. AND IT IS DAMM UNCOMFORTABLE

Lord, if being too slow kept people from coming out, our monthly matches would be 4 guys. Go shoot, it will be fun.

 

[Scotchmo]

I don’t have a problem with the AAFTA kneeling rules, but I do wonder where they came from. Even the NRA positional rules are not as restrictive.

 

[Motorhead]

I don’t have a problem with the AAFTA kneeling rules, but I do wonder where they came from. Even the NRA positional rules are not as restrictive.

Nor do I ... Those who are the top shooters at most any match where forced lanes are in place and correctly distanced / sized for the discipline assigned, Can shoot these lanes & generally do very good to really well & Win Matches !!

When a Kneel lane becomes Offhand for some ... It is generally MORE difficult than the designated offhand lane & that I will agree is unfortunate.
I certainly would not trade these lanes away for an Increased difficulty in the sitters tho