I’m not speculating, either. Thanks for asking, though.
Mike
That's good to hear; I won't ask for details. However I do wonder why you'd assume Dave ill-qualified to comment on Standing with sticks.
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Forced Kneeling
- Thread starter AirNGasman
- Start date
That's good to hear; I won't ask for details. However I do wonder why you'd assume Dave ill-qualified to comment on Standing with sticks.
You can take my comment to Dave exactly as it was worded…as I believe it would be interesting to see how someone would do at both given equal experience or inexperience. But, of course, I said that already.
Mike
Mike
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"You can take my comment to Dave exactly as it was worded". Oh, I did; but decided to be nice rather than come right out and state you were trying to create the illusion Dave had never shot Standing with sticks. An untruth. I simply corrected the record, nicely.
As for it would be interesting to see how someone would do at both given equal experience, of course it would. But seeing as no-one does have equal experience with both positions in field target, we don't know for sure.
However having as much experience at both as anyone, I not only consider a 1.5X multiplier appropriate for both, but have collected data suggesting that true. Others experienced at shooting both ways that can no longer shoot kneeling agree the two positions equally challenging. And as I said already, WE seek no advantage.
It appears only those enjoying their advantage are unwilling to lose their advantage. But of course, I said that already (too).
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Thank you for your excellent, well-reasoned post Dave.
Thank you also for- 1) Investing the time and effort to conduct an unbiased poll of field target participants disadvantaged in their beloved sport at your club due to ageism, 2) Investing the time and effort to conduct your own unbiased testing of the two positions being discussed in this thread as a fair means to address that ageism discrimination, and 3) Having the courage to report your polling and testing results knowing you'd likely come under fire from those unwilling to surrender their advantage.
However, knowing you well enough to realize you are man of honesty, integrity and conscience, can't say it's any surprise that such an individual possesses the courage to do what's right despite possible repercussions. Sorry that's what happened, but I suspect you expected as much.
Doubtful we'll see similar unbiased polling and/or unskewed testing from the opposition, much less reporting of (unskewed) results.
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Is there a definitive description of Standing With Sticks ? as in just where the sticks contact the rifle ? Or where the hand's are in relation to the sticks as in possibly the fore hand is in front of the stick/yoke and the yoke is at the mid balance point of the rifle ? Or is this just a personal preference as to how one holds everything ?
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No, there isn't. As I understand it that's because the individual largely responsible for Extreme Field Target founding and promotion purposely wants to avoid over-regulation(s), in hopes of also avoiding the EFT rules becoming something/anything like the (thirty-page) AAFTA handbook.
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I feel that off hand or unsupported shots are part of the skill set for FT. Standing puts everyone in the the same degree of freedom, but kneeling usually helps remove some degrees of freedom or movement if you can kneel. That is why the Kill Zones tend to be smaller for kneeling. I don’t see a flood of young people into FT and if I look at the photos on line of FT matches, I’m betting the average age is closer to 60 than 40. If you want to chase people out of FT start penalizing them for getting old and having artificial knees. Have a sitting lane with no sticks or have a standing mono pod or have some other positions that don’t tend to penalize age and arthritis.
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How are things going to get better if we won't try anything new/different?
Mix it up, try new requirements, keep it a living format. Require 4 offhand targets, kneeling optional for maximum of 2 of the 4. Let the shooter strategize by selecting which targets to comply with forced position requirements... it would make the shoot more interesting as it would add to the strategy.
If we wanted to shoot the same/limited format, shooting 25 times on the same card, unchanging, we know where to go.
Mix it up, try new requirements, keep it a living format. Require 4 offhand targets, kneeling optional for maximum of 2 of the 4. Let the shooter strategize by selecting which targets to comply with forced position requirements... it would make the shoot more interesting as it would add to the strategy.
If we wanted to shoot the same/limited format, shooting 25 times on the same card, unchanging, we know where to go.
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That is already is in place .... Can't kneel ?, shoot it offhand.
If a competitor CAN NOT do any of the harder & more demanding "Forced Positions" then it's tough to run with the top dogs who can.
A Simple & harsh reality of the FT game !!
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isn’t it already within the current rules to set up a course with the required number of forced positions being all offhand?
If so, that solves all the bad knee issues without changing the rules at all.
Mike
If so, that solves all the bad knee issues without changing the rules at all.
Mike
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still sticking with my original statement , it is the directed position of the rear foot , Not the kneeling part .
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I have never been excited to shoot forced positions and started Field Target at 50% or less. Most of my competitors shoot really well and our matches are won or lost by one or two points. Now, I never shoot without practicing these positions. My average is 75% now, still working toward a 100%.
I've been down 2 points and finished in fifth place. That just makes me try harder.
I've been down 2 points and finished in fifth place. That just makes me try harder.
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When you start to average +/- 90% you will be among the top shooters at any match. While some do clean a course in rare occasions, shooting at 100% sounds great !!!
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Yes, that was my original point. For GP matches, the rules say that there have to be a certain number of forced position shots, but they don't specify kneeling or off-hand. The only place in the rules that dictate kneeling shots is in the shoot-off rules for GP matches.
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As a 70 something year old friend of mine in Cajun Country says...if you cant shoot the kneeling lanes kneeling, feel free to stand. I totally agree. How has this subject gone on 12 pages? Get out and shoot and have fun. Its not like were winning thousands of dollars at our monthly shoots or national shoots, or World shoots. I was just in England at Worlds HFT competition, and the winner who shot 113/120, took home some plaques and a silver cup. See you guys down the road. BC
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"How has this subject gone on 12 pages?"
Heck, I don't know how opposing opinions could bicker on endlessly...
In 2023. But I'll hazard a wild guess.
Humans like to talk. Next they'll be singing about talking.
And naming bands about talking.
Then those bands will be make songs about talking.
WHERE DOES IT ALL END?!
Heck, I don't know how opposing opinions could bicker on endlessly...
In 2023. But I'll hazard a wild guess.
Humans like to talk. Next they'll be singing about talking.
And naming bands about talking.
Then those bands will be make songs about talking.WHERE DOES IT ALL END?!
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The decision between kneeling and offhand for Forced Position shots is up to the Match Director.
Here is the GP rule for Forced Position shots:
At least 10 but no more than 20 shots for the overall match must be Forced Position shots, with a
minimum hit-zone of 3/4" and a maximum distance of 45 yards.
If enough of the commenters on this thread come to attend the ROT GP at ASC in November 17-19, I will make ALL of the forced position shots standing. Who will accept this offer?
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Kneeling lanes are fine. We should ban oversized sidewheels and sticks from the Hunter class.
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That’s a great offer, Jeff. It will completely solve the disability issue in a most equitable manner, while simultaneously exposing those who were actually looking to modify the format for their own benefit.
Best of all, it requires no rule changes. Great proposal!
Mike
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