N/A Future of HP PCP guns?

[rangur1]

Now I’m definitely stepping out of my pay grade here. In my humble opinion, the next major improvement with all pcp will be in the air delivery area or valving system. Now in my simple mind, there’s the venerable “hammer slap” system. IDK it’s proper name. Newer guns have shown a “balanced valve” system- RTI and EPIC, and the Huben- which has a “plunger “ type system if I understand correctly. I sure don’t know the nuances, but I’ll bet there are plenty who can chime in. Does anyone think any of these newer designs will render the “hammer slap “ design obsolete? If so, are the newer designs a passing trend to something different?

 

[JimD]

In my opinion airguns using hammers to open a valve are going to predominate as long as I am shooting. I also suspect they will while my kids are around. I'm sure there are advantages of other ways of doing it but most of the ideas are not at all new and the fact that they have not taken off to hold a substantial amount of the market suggests their advantages are not huge. The only design that seems truly advanced to me is the Hueben. I wish they made something other than a semi-automatic with a fixed magazine.

 

[Motorhead]

Valving effects in performance is pretty large ! ... but sadly as a saying goes, there is no free lunch either.
Conventional poppet valves can & will exhibit bounce for several reasons such as, Too much hammer weight, too soft of poppet spring, low pressure, long stroke hammer and soft hammer spring is a few.
* Countering this "Could Be" .... Stiffer poppet spring, lighter hammer and stiffer hammer spring, hammer in free flight, shorter stroke ( Then we have TSS & SSG anti bounce system. *again not a complete list.

Partial balanced valve ( as FX uses commonly ) poppet area isolation to atmosphere type.
Pressure feed back balanced valves ( JSAR, Cothrin, URAGAN 3's & likely others ) Poppet area isolation using valve throat pressure when present to aid valve closure.


Some designs are better at metering precise flow, others for high flow and power.
Each operates best in a specific type configuration, tho there is much overlap in miens of tuning each type.

The balanced valve designs in general do require less hammer mass and in trade deliver a lower cyclic vibration, guns cock easier too.
* sadly these do best in higher output applications as precise air metering is not there strong suit, but can be with additional parts limiting lift & dwell.

This a very loose overview.

 

[Stubbers]

Balanced valve is an awful term for the type of valve used imo in FX, RTI, and Epic, among some others, likewise RTI calling it an Assisted valve is also a terrible term because nothing is assisting it. The best term that describes it but doesn't 'sell' would be 'Pressure reduced valve' or some wordage similar to this, "Poppet holding force reduced valve" would be the most appropriate, which again isn't a 'sale phrase'.

Seen here is a 'Poppet holding force reduce' valve aka 'Balanced Valve'. The reduced force is displaced onto the piston OD that resides within the peek bored out poppet below. The height of the chamber is adjustable allowing the user to manipulate how much hammer strike is needed to create a certain amount of dwell, or to create a blow open style valve if adjusted for that. There is a vent that allows the bored out poppet section to reference atmospheric air, meaning inside that chamber while the valve is closed, you have ATM air acting upon its surface area opposed to your regulated pressure. One opened, the secondary function of the vent is to breathe enough air into the above mentioned volume to reverse the effects, returning the poppet to nearly a conventional state where closing forces are almost the same as a valve without the piston displacing any force, thus the inner chamber being at throat pressure / shot cycle pressure helps make this valve tunable, which is something I first discovered for the tuning community over at the GTA (vent size + chamber volume as solution to making these valves tunable via hammer strike)...however at that time FX was already using these in their gun, that doesn't mean they had it ALL figured out like what was done at the GTA, which allows far more manipulation of dwell than FX's design at the time.

Pilot valves are far superior to them. Because you can reduce the 'hammer slap' effect greater than any mechanically driven valve that I am aware of currently used in pcps. Quick animation shown how they *can* function here, based on a design both Dave and myself brainstormed:

Hammerless valve tech has been around for 7 years now and has yet to render mechanically driven valves obsolete...they are cool but, pilot valves are complicated enough and having 2 guns with PV's, I have no desire for something more complicated as seen in hubens, as my valves require VERY little hammer strike / slap and in its current state its inaudible. My regulated gun uses 4 grams of hammer 3-4 lb/in spring depending on tune, my unregulated gun uses 8 gram hammer with 4lb/in spring, both only require .45" hammer travel, or in other words around 1/6 the KE and 1/10th the momentum of the original gun that uses a conventional valve, and about 1/3 the KE and 1/3rd the momentum of a balanced valve.

More can be read here, but I covered a lot here on the BV with a good 'nuff summary.

Comparing a few Poppet Valves

Before I begin...Many thanks goes to Dave/ @sb327 for his contributions in getting me to where I am today with my current valve arrangement, we worked together closely to dial in versatile pilot valve that works very similarly to the one found in the L2. Also thanks to @csdilligaf for turning...

www.airgunnation.com

-Matt

 

[beerthief]

Maybe i am missing something but could not electric solenoid operation eliminate the bounce of spring power ? HA i might not even be stating that correctly !

 

[Stubbers]

Maybe i am missing something but could not electric solenoid operation eliminate the bounce of spring power ? HA i might not even be stating that correctly !

I think Skout uses an electronically actuated valve. I am not an "e-gun" kind of guy so I'll stick with mechanically driven valves. Keeping my gun charged with air is enough, never mind electricity.

-Matt

 

[Motorhead]

Maybe i am missing something but could not electric solenoid operation eliminate the bounce of spring power ? HA i might not even be stating that correctly

As in the daystate electronic guns

 

[Emu]

IMHO, an electronic trigger THAT WORKS properly, is unbeatable... But a nice mechanical trigger is more reliable.

The release of the air of the Sidewinder is a clear evolution over the spring- hammer hit to open the valve system.

What make the Sidewinder still away from being the best way a PCP can work, doubtless is the trigger.

The chrony incorporated in the Delta and Alfa Wolf and the possibility of adjusting the power in the screen is modernity.

A semi Delta with the trigger of a Wolverine and the barrel of an Airgun Technology rifle that can provide the accuracy of the Vulcan 3 at 300 yards would be the pinacle of a PCP.

I am of the idea that the very best PCP you can buy now to get the very best accuracy at long range is doubtless the Vulcan 3 700 mm.

 

[Stubbers]

The year is 2034, you boot up your smart electronic gun, charge is only 20%, oh rats, is that enough for today? Within a moment, you are quickly prompted by...an unskippable ad because you forgot to pay your 15.99 monthly premium.

Range anxiety is real for anyone with an electronic vehicle...I don't care how good they get, I don't need to be concerned with my airguns charge more than I already do with air. I don't need electronic gauges, triggers, or actuated valves, but to each their own.

-Matt

 

[Dairyboy]

The year is 2034, you boot up your smart electronic gun, charge is only 20%, oh rats, is that enough for today? Within a moment, you are quickly prompted by...an unskippable ad because you forgot you pay your 15.99 monthly premium.

Range anxiety is real for anyone with an electronic vehicle...I don't care how good they get, I don't need to be concerned with my airguns charge more than I already do with air. I don't need electronic gauges, triggers, or actuated valves, but to each their own.

-Matt

100%. I even have my doubts with my Zulus. Sometimes I forget to turn it off then come back to use later and it's dead. A great scope but for someone like me that prefers mechanical things it's an issue as I don't think about it always. As cool as those guns can be, don't think I can bite the bullet.

Working on our farm equipment it's easy to fid mechanical problems but when electrical or computer issues pop up what a nightmare

 

[Stubbers]

100%. I even have my doubts with my Zulus. Sometimes I forget to turn it off then come back to use later and it's dead. A great scope but for someone like me that prefers mechanical things it's an issue as I don't think about it always. As cool as those guns can be, don't think I can bite the bullet.

Working on our farm equipment it's easy to fid mechanical problems but when electrical or computer issues pop up what a nightmare

There certainly are pros and cons to both, but, I feel the cons outweigh the pros for myself subjectively when it comes to electronics and my airgun, from valves, triggers, gauges and to scopes.

If my compressor that relies on electricity goes out, I can hand pump my gun and keep shooting during power outages or some unforeseen events.

However, with a full blown electronic gun, you're always at the whim of the power grid, and I don't want to have to worry about it, not because of paranoia, but because its just one less thing to worry about in a day and age where life is busy enough.

To me, overly digitized guns are more of a niche than a necessary step forward with innovation. Do the guns or accessories have their place on the market. Absolutely. Are they going to take over the market share? Hopefully not in my lifetime.

Add to that, electronics / cpu power will keep improving, if we let manufacturers deem them more than just niche, you're in for a wild ride with new 'innovations'.

-Matt

 

[Peashooter]

Sometimes I forget to turn it off then come back to use later and it's dead

I did that not long ago with my insta360 Ace PRO action camera, fortunately i was able to set it back to a inactivity timer and not always on.
I think i made that change before making very long night lapse recordings, and it is not really needed for that CUZ the camera is active and so will not shut down, that timer / menu setting are solely for inactivity, so now 5 minutes of nothing and my action camera turn off.
Some dashcams will also use G sensor feedback to change to parking guard, so i would assume a digi scope that as i understand also often have G-sensor in them, to instead shut down in case of inactivity.

My mind in its hours of sleep deprived state at night, have been working on if plate valves ( as seen in some compressors ) could be used in airguns, and other silly things i can come up with as the BS my brain do to keep me awake is just rerunning old memories over and over and over and over.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

100%. I even have my doubts with my Zulus. Sometimes I forget to turn it off then come back to use later and it's dead. A great scope but for someone like me that prefers mechanical things it's an issue as I don't think about it always. As cool as those guns can be, don't think I can bite the bullet.

Working on our farm equipment it's easy to fid mechanical problems but when electrical or computer issues pop up what a nightmare

I'm surprised they don't have a sleep function.

 

[Dairyboy]

so i would assume a digi scope that as i understand also often have G-sensor in them, to instead shut down in case of inactivity.

I'm surprised they don't have a sleep function.

Lol so apparently it does have that. Wasn't aware of that. So thanks for you both stating that so now I won't have that issue again. Like stated I don't usually do electronics

 

[JaceSpace1369]

Lol so apparently it does have that. Wasn't aware of that. So thanks for you both stating that so now I won't have that issue again.

Ayyy glad to help lol

 

[Peashooter]

I have just gotten around to putting the charge cable for my Sekmet gauge in the range kit, CUZ the first time it ran out, was of course at the range.

The dashcam power pack i am testing currently, it also have a USB output of 2 - 2.5 A, so i could charge things there in a pinch, though i will probably also have to get a power bank, not least if i also get a digi scope, which i am very much contemplating.

 

[Stubbers]

I have just gotten around to putting the charge cable for my Sekmet gauge in the range kit, CUZ the first time it ran out, was of course at the range.

The dashcam power pack i am testing currently, it also have a USB output of 2 - 2.5 A, so i could charge things there in a pinch, though i will probably also have to get a power bank, not least if i also get a digi scope, which i am very much contemplating.

All the more reason I choose the K.I.S.S approach. Don't want 3 charging cables and a power bank for my gun. Don't wanna be fearful of a little rain either.

Also, the digital scope you get today will not hold up to the one released in 2 years or 5 years, ect..likewise with the Gauges, already new generations released, where as my analog gauge will only need replaced when it malfunctions, likewise with the scope...then add in the re-occurring costs. Analog gauges $4, digital $40-80, analog scope $100-$400, digital $699-$1000. Did I mention they basically become obsolete every few years once a far better improved one is released? How many digital scopes have come out that render last years latest a dud? AND its still early in that game...

When digital scopes get 4k HD crystal clarity, maybe I'll revisit my thoughts but I wouldn't want image degradation with 1080 or less that all digital scopes have currently.

-Matt

 

[JaceSpace1369]

All the more reason I choose the K.I.S.S approach. Don't want 3 charging cables and a power bank for my gun. Don't wanna be fearful of a little rain either.

Also, the digital scope you get today will not hold up to the one released in 2 years or 5 years, ect..likewise with the Gauges, already new generations released, where as my analog gauge will only need replaced when it malfunctions, likewise with the scope...then add in the re-occurring costs. Analog gauges $4, digital $40-80, analog scope $100-$400, digital $699-$1000. Did I mention they basically become obsolete every few years once a far better improved one is released? How many digital scopes have come out that render last years latest a dud? AND its still early in that game...

When digital scopes get 4k HD crystal clarity, maybe I'll revisit my thoughts but I wouldn't want image degradation with 1080 or less that all digital scopes have currently.

-Matt

They do, but they're in the 3.5k - 7k range. I would love to get a pulsar thermion.

I currently use my buddys sightmark wraith whenever it's gloomy, it's day and night for which I've used the night feature at night for yotes at night. But the night feature during the day time is a game changer when looking for iguanas. Their whole silhouette shows up and makes them easy pickings.

I will add that this one is battery powered.

 

[rangur1]

Stubbers, very nice visual of those valve systems. Seems Huben and Yourself have very promising designs. The inevitable question down the road is consistency and cost. If no one can design a system that's cost effective vs the Hammer slap system as I call it. There won't be incentive to improve. Unless superior performance is achieved and justifying increased cost.

 

[Peashooter]

Well i am also not too big on the digi guns, but if i want to shoot in darkness at least that part will have to go digital.
The REG gauge, well it is a fab and i can always put the analog one back on the rifle

Regarding didiscopes i have wondered about a few things.

1: Why dont they have more optical zoom, my CCTV camera have 30 X optical zoom, with a little digital on top of that ( 1440 p sensor ) , i get crazy close to things i aim my PTZ camera at. 4 K sensor would let me go even more digital before it turn into blockoland.
2: Why are image quality, even just daylight lagging so much, when after all the sensor in the scopes are top notch tuff
On the latter i can only assume the companies are not utilizing the hardware enough, like i have seen i dashcams for ages, some will sell cameras with pretty rudimentary optimizations on it, pretty much just what the maker of the SOC is giving them.

In dashcams at least there is a difference in between the companies that try, and a huge difference to the companies that dont try very much.