FX .25 Slug Liner, 1:16 TR, Fouling

[mackeral5]

Yikes! You guys have him trying to fire lap his barrel or send it back and nobody even asked what kind of lube he’s using on those slugs. All the fire lapping or polishing in the world doesn’t mean squat if you don’t lube. We are not shooting copper here.

Lubing is an option, but not the only option. Nor is it a requirement.

Some prep the bore and never use lube on their ammo Some only lube. Some do both.

All can achieve similar results.

It is up to the individual to determine what works best for them.

As you are a user of lube, could you offer any advice as to the best lube to start with?

 

[Vetmx]

When you do years of lube testing, you understand the effects of lubes. How some barrels do fine with one lube and another doesn’t. How some lubes produce great accuracy but an ever changing POI. Lead just shouldn’t be sent down a barrel of any gun, real or airgun without lube. Especially sensitive airgun barrels. We just don’t seem to be able to overcome fouling.

 

[nervoustrig]

Both are true.

A lubricant is beneficial to reduce fouling.

Lapping is beneficial to reduce fouling.

Do both.

 

[Revoman]

Vetmx
If you have performed said lube testing, would you please elaborate on some of the ones that can be used best in the FX liners for instance?

 

[mackeral5]

I will admit to being a bit cagey in my response. I was careful to say "lube ammo."

I do not lube my ammo, but the hard wax barrier coating my bores does serve as a form of lubricant.

I find that works well enough for my purposes. Is it better? I think that depends on how we compare data? IMO data can be collected in a way that shows either method to be superior. Test methods can be biased to one method over the others.

One must find a method that works well and meets their needs.

I do not like dealing with lube when handling ammo, so I lap/polish/wax my bores and clean when needed.

This method meets my needs, but in no way should that be interpreted to mean that I think it is the best way for everyone.

I am not arrogant enough to think that I have the final say or best answer for anything. It is all personal opinion,.based on my personal experience.

Great dialogue, thanks all for contributing.

 

[BSJ]

Buy a Teslong borescope. Scope the liner and see what's going on.

One liner I got new and unfired was pitted and rough. FX replaced it as defective.

All this firelapping stuff is just guess work too, if you can't actually see before, during and after.

 

[Vetmx]

I will admit to being a bit cagey in my response. I was careful to say "lube ammo."

I do not lube my ammo, but the hard wax barrier coating my bores does serve as a form of lubricant.

I find that works well enough for my purposes. Is it better? I think that depends on how we compare data? IMO data can be collected in a way that shows either method to be superior. Test methods can be biased to one method over the others.

One must find a method that works well and meets their needs.

I do not like dealing with lube when handling ammo, so I lap/polish/wax my bores and clean when needed.

This method meets my needs, but in no way should that be interpreted to mean that I think it is the best way for everyone.

I am not arrogant enough to think that I have the final say or best answer for anything. It is all personal opinion,.based on my personal experience.

Great dialogue, thanks all for contributing.

I am in no way trying to argue. And it’s a shame that people are so sensitive or combative nowadays that we have to start off sentences like this but I remember you from GTA many years ago and we always shared good info. I was Pelletjunkie over there. I’ve always been more skeptical of barrel waxers way more than lubers. What wax on earth applied to bare metal with a mop can handle the friction of compressed lead zinging across its surface at 1,000fps? None. Teflon coat the bore? Yes. But that’s a serious process. Like you said we can all make a convincing case for whatever we believe works from our experience. So I should probably keep what I’ve learned from lubes to myself. It’s very confusing anyway. Just when you think you have something figured out and understand all the factors that should lead to certain conclusions, something throws a curve ball and I’m left with a funny look on my face while shaking my head. Slug life.

 

[mackeral5]

I am in no way trying to argue. And it’s a shame that people are so sensitive or combative nowadays that we have to start off sentences like this but I remember you from GTA many years ago and we always shared good info. I was Pelletjunkie over there. I’ve always been more skeptical of barrel waxers way more than lubers. What wax on earth applied to bare metal with a mop can handle the friction of compressed lead zinging across its surface at 1,000fps? None. Teflon coat the bore? Yes. But that’s a serious process. Like you said we can all make a convincing case for whatever we believe works from our experience. So I should probably keep what I’ve learned from lubes to myself. It’s very confusing anyway. Just when you think you have something figured out and understand all the factors that should lead to certain conclusions, something throws a curve ball and I’m left with a funny look on my face while shaking my head. Slug life.

Frank, no offense man. But when you jump into a conversation the way you did this on it can be received as a bit declaratory and condescending by others. I'll take responsibility for misinterpreting your intent.

The key detail for me here is I am simply sharing an alternative, not declaring my method the best method and while bringing your declarations into question.

Hard waxing a prepped bore works well for me and doesn't require frequent cleaning, most of the time. For example, I have one particular 35" section of TJ's 25-20 that wants to be cleaned frequently I do not care what you do with it....silicon RC shock oil, FP10, wax the bore, it doesn't care. Like clockwork after around 50 rounds or so it will tell you it needs cleaning.

I do recall your GTA days, I learned from your posts over there as well as here. We had different approaches to some things over there as well, but that IMO didn't make either of us "wrong." When i grew tired of polishing chinese and crosman turds and made my decision to go long on the Taipan Veteran platform, this was largely based on your posts over the years.

 

[Vetmx]

Frank, no offense man. But when you jump into a conversation the way you did this on it can be received as a bit declaratory and condescending by others. I'll take responsibility for misinterpreting your intent.

The key detail for me here is I am simply sharing an alternative, not declaring my method the best method and while bringing your declarations into question.

Hard waxing a prepped bore works well for me and doesn't require frequent cleaning, most of the time. For example, I have one particular 35" section of TJ's 25-20 that wants to be cleaned frequently I do not care what you do with it....silicon RC shock oil, FP10, wax the bore, it doesn't care. Like clockwork after around 50 rounds or so it will tell you it needs cleaning.

I do recall your GTA days, I learned from your posts over there as well as here. We had different approaches to some things over there as well, but that IMO didn't make either of us "wrong." When i grew tired of polishing chinese and crosman turds and made my decision to go long on the Taipan Veteran platform, this was largely based on your posts over the years.

You are the second person that has shared that exact opinion of a TJ with me. And it puts me more at ease. I have two guns with TJ’s on them and they are exceptional slug shooters once you figure things out with the whole process of machining and slug fitting. But they are included in all my testing that includes FX straws, CZ and LW barrels. Those dirty son of a gun TJ’s throw the most curve balls. The one that I shoot at about 200fps slower than the other seems to go much longer without fouling issues. FX straws with their inconsistent bores can cause some head scratching too. When I had my Taipan on slugs, it was a shockingly consistent slug gun. Just a bit underpowered. I needed more barrel length in order to not punish the gun so it’s a pellet gun again.

 

[Vetmx]

I forgot to mention I go 150 shots on a TJ then clean. I go 200 shots with a FX liner and clean. My lube testing is not about shot count. It’s about trying to control the slight scope adjustments I sometimes have to make as I approach cleaning time. Just trying to make guns as consistent for as long as possible. All my slug guns have an exact pellet shooting clone to use as a control gun. Trying to bridge that gap. I have with accuracy, and since I no longer poke my good shooters with a stick modding them, I have to experiment with something to make me crazy.

 

[coffeepan]

Been using this...well looks like over 10 years

Lapping barrel because it was a bit rough. And bullerts/slugs are lubricated with the above silicone. In my case, the barrel has had to be cleaned significantly less often than before the procedure.

 

[mackeral5]

I forgot to mention I go 150 shots on a TJ then clean. I go 200 shots with a FX liner and clean. My lube testing is not about shot count. It’s about trying to control the slight scope adjustments I sometimes have to make as I approach cleaning time. Just trying to make guns as consistent for as long as possible. All my slug guns have an exact pellet shooting clone to use as a control gun. Trying to bridge that gap. I have with accuracy, and since I no longer poke my good shooters with a stick modding them, I have to experiment with something to make me crazy.

Oddly enough, my
357 and .300 TJ's 1:26 barrels are not near as sensitive, but it could be that I do not have the same long range accuracy expectations of those guns...

My Vet std is a 55-60fpe King Heavy shooter my Vet Long has an unchoked 600mm LW and tuned for Altaros 49.5gr @850-880 depending on how many shots I am willing to give up....playing with 700mm fx liners to determine if I want to have a real long barrel made, and if so in what twist rate...The. 250 TJ's is too tight for my likings, the LW just a tad too big.....

 

[Jaxjax]

Firelapping an airgun.........it can be a very messy process, one that can often require a good bit of cleanup afterwards as well as require replacement of the breech/probe sealing oring, depending on the gun's configuration. one should be prepared for that....

I am not recommending against it, but everyone should be aware of what they are getting info. I prefer lapping/polishing the barrel outside of the gun, carefully clampped in padded/v shaped vise jaws. In the case of an FXliner, assembled in the FX housing, with the housing clamped in the padded vise jaws.

Lead lapping , when done properly, is hard to beat. The process of creating the lap makes it out of reach for many.

The process of tapered lapping using tight fitting patches and abrasives or polishing paper is the method I feel most comfortable with.

tapered lap is what Shilen is doing with there rimfire barrels & the wait now for them is over a year as of yesterday.
Joe

 

[Jaxjax]

I will admit to being a bit cagey in my response. I was careful to say "lube ammo."

I do not lube my ammo, but the hard wax barrier coating my bores does serve as a form of lubricant.

I find that works well enough for my purposes. Is it better? I think that depends on how we compare data? IMO data can be collected in a way that shows either method to be superior. Test methods can be biased to one method over the others.

One must find a method that works well and meets their needs.

I do not like dealing with lube when handling ammo, so I lap/polish/wax my bores and clean when needed.

This method meets my needs, but in no way should that be interpreted to mean that I think it is the best way for everyone.

I am not arrogant enough to think that I have the final say or best answer for anything. It is all personal opinion,.based on my personal experience.

Great dialogue, thanks all for contributing.

I am curious of the wax process you use ?

 

[mackeral5]

I am curious of the wax process you use ?

Basically what Jason/Nervoustrigger and Scott S/Motorhead have shared many times. Several different waxes are used by others, but I use Trewax paste wax. IIRC the old Johnson's paste wax is what many preferred, but I do not think it is made any longer.

After your bore prep, whatever regimen you use, including fire lapping, some even polish with something like mothers mag wheel polish, clean the bore thoroughly, remove all lubes, etc. I use a couple of acetone patches to do the final cleaning. I keep a few different sized bore mops in my wax container, pick the right size, and liberally wax the bore. I do a lot of short back and forth strokes, hoping to get it in every irregular spot remaining in the prepped bore. let it sit, I try for at least an hour or even overnight. Either run a clean patch down the bore to clean it or just shoot it out, I typically just shoot it out. within a few shots you are right back on zero with accuracy restored to whatever that combination is capable of.....

 

[jbravo103]

I wonder if the SA guys go through all this trouble of fire lapping, polishing, waxing, and lubing? Or do they get cherry-picked premium liners since FX sponsors them to promote/sell their product?

I know Dubber said in one of his vids that he never cleans his FX liners.

 

[bigHUN]

I would suggest the tip of the hill competition shooters "getting" a dozen or two liners - to test - and test pick the - one - best performing.
I was competing archery (FITA and Field) for almost two decades, and I know that if I need a dozen arrows for the incoming tournament (CX Nano Pro's about a $450 a dzn) I need to do a selection from at least 3 dozens. The selection means measuring + assembling + spine testing + shot testing from a shooting fixture.... The final arrows set I will be playing with that weekend reached the ticket of about $750/dzn. And got banged up usually pretty badly during a single day. So the next tournament the same excersize again. These prices were from years ago and not sure how much would cost today...
To be transparent to airgun dictionary... yes, competing in tournaments and championships is not for average pocket. But if you wanna challenge the $20K paycheck for sure you need to put all the cards on table...
We know the drill what all is involved to have a "good" performing liner/barrel and only up to you what is "good enough".
Nothing to be excited about what the pro's are doing, if you want to get to a sponsored list you know what you have to do... throw a resume downwind.

 

[mackeral5]

I started out with a brand new never shot 700mm 1:16. Gave it a bit of prep and shot approximately 150 rounds of mostly ATP Smooths, shaking down a new to me gun that is made up of shipments from at least 3 members here and another member over at GTA.

After work today I wanted to see what a complete shot string looked like on a full fill, starting with the first shot after filling. OG Veteran long ATP Smooth 49.5 @850fps, my 100 yard range. Leaning against the side of my truck, bipod rested on the bedcover.

5 shot groups working from top left (1) to top right (2) to lower left (3) to lower right (4) to center (5) to lower center (6) then when she was in that goldilocks zone of just before and after coming off reg, top center (7) 35 shots total. I put shot 36 over the chronograph expecting low 800's, it was 845fps.

Group 7 was the best 100 yard group I've shot in recent history, possibly ever.

I am not the best shot nor are these perfect groups, but I guess I got a decent liner.

What does this have to do with the OP's post? IMO, installing the liner without a little prep is like playing the lottery. I feel like I can at least improve my odds a bit with a little barrel prep. At least then I feel I have a 50/50 chance of making it a good liner or fixing it to death, lol.... And I have fixed a few barrels to death, that is always the risk when you DIY.

 

[mackeral5]

Somewhere around the 200 shot mark accuracy went to heck, and it did so very abruptly.

Borescope inspection showed a lot of lead buildup.

Using Ballistol as cleaner, it was rather difficult to clean up. I have since ordered some shooters choice.....

In upcoming days I plan to test using combining the waxed bore prep and a dry lube on the slugs themselves....

 

[Revoman]

Wow, you may need to procure a lead removing kit that comes with a brass/bronze wire mesh that does better job than just patches.
Yes, I know that bronze is sometimes frowned upon in this Forum, but sometimes it's needed. Just remove any barrel O-Rings in the barrel/liner once done to replace as it will very likely be torn up.