FX Dreamline POI shifts -HELP

[Joedirt199]

Going to try a test. Shooting my compact and 500 .22s in the basement at 12 yards to induce bumped barrel groups and over time different pressure groups. Going to use the same target to show if there is any poi shift over time. I use a case with egg carton foam so first group will be right out of the case and then bump the barrel in 4 directions and see if the groups move. I already know the barrels are solid and shoot good groups. If you barrel can't shoot groups then scope, liner or pellets are to blame.

 

[bsahogger]

I have read this entire thread
But went back tonight to see when the gun was bought and from who
And now assume you bought it new from UTAH, not pre-owned

If this were my heartbreak to deal with, I'd be on the phone with them making a warranty claim, getting an RMA number, and politely insisting on getting a new rifle.
Maybe, just maybe, accepting a compromise of this rifle with a new, fully tested barrel
And if they tried any avoidance tactics the words "I want my money back" would cross my lips

Think about it for a moment.
With all the remedies you have tried, is there any other conclusion to come to?

I sincerely hope you get this resolved to your (not anyone else's) satisfaction

Good luck
Edward

PS
Have you inspeted barrel's crown?

Yeah bought new from UA. I feel for them (aside from initially blowing me off, which they've made good on now) they're in a bad situation. They only fix the guns, they don't design or build them. This is a design issue: ridiculous little flimsy straw for a barrel, held in place with silly little plastic wagon wheels which cant & move. I have read another post stating that the twist design that FX uses to 'rifle' these little pathetic tubes is too aggressive for the .177 bore, which causes internal cracks, I can fully see that happening, we're talking 4.5mm ID with 7mm OD, that's only a 1.25mm (0.049") wall thickness man. So try us UA may, they can only patch this. In their own words:
"We understand where you are coming from and how frustrating it is. We have talked to FX about this before at length..."

And:

"...many people being willing to do their own fix there just isn't enough demand to create a change"

I have hundreds of other guns (air, rimfire, center fire, black powder) that I tinker with. I didn't want a competition gun that needed to be tinkered with (aside from tuning), let alone re-designing the thing & gluing it together. So yeah we're now talking about a trade in.

 

[Joedirt199]

So here is what I got today and my setup

Dreamline Tactical Bottle 500mm .22 with Sightron S3 3-10 scope shooting JSB 18s around 860 fps Eaglevision magazine off a tripod

Starting bottle pressure 192 bar
Reg Pressure 106 bar
After first few shots 103 bar
Transfer port High
Macro wheel setting A
MIcro hammer setting .75"
First shot speed 836 fps
Second shot speed 861 fps
Third shot speed 861 fps
total shots 11

Dreamline Tactical Bottle 300mm .22 with Leupold 2-7 rimfire scope shooting JSB 15.9s around 730 fps from Carm mags

Starting bottle pressure 195 bar
Reg pressure 97 bar
after a few shots 95 bar
transfer port Medium
Macro wheel B
MIcro hammer adj .7"
First shot 710 fps
Second shot 709 fps
Third shot 746 fps
total shots 11

I took a control group of 3 shots on the left to see where it was hitting and to see if there was reg creep. Then I squeezed or pulled the barrel in four directions, 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock to test poi shifts. The 500 barrel is pretty stock while the 300 barrel has the liner carbon sleeve, and a carbon tube glued to the outside of the shroud tube for more rigidity. The shifted shots are two shot groups and the 500 was doing really well with minimal shift until I squeezed it in the 9 o'clock direction. Those shots landed outside of the main group. The 300 barrel, even though it is shorter and stiffer did worse.

 

[bsahogger]

So here is what I got today and my setup

Dreamline Tactical Bottle 500mm .22 with Sightron S3 3-10 scope shooting JSB 18s around 860 fps Eaglevision magazine off a tripod

Starting bottle pressure 192 bar
Reg Pressure 106 bar
After first few shots 103 bar
Transfer port High
Macro wheel setting A
MIcro hammer setting .75"
First shot speed 836 fps
Second shot speed 861 fps
Third shot speed 861 fps
total shots 11

Dreamline Tactical Bottle 300mm .22 with Leupold 2-7 rimfire scope shooting JSB 15.9s around 730 fps from Carm mags

Starting bottle pressure 195 bar
Reg pressure 97 bar
after a few shots 95 bar
transfer port Medium
Macro wheel B
MIcro hammer adj .7"
First shot 710 fps
Second shot 709 fps
Third shot 746 fps
total shots 11

I took a control group of 3 shots on the left to see where it was hitting and to see if there was reg creep. Then I squeezed or pulled the barrel in four directions, 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock to test poi shifts. The 500 barrel is pretty stock while the 300 barrel has the liner carbon sleeve, and a carbon tube glued to the outside of the shroud tube for more rigidity. The shifted shots are two shot groups and the 500 was doing really well with minimal shift until I squeezed it in the 9 o'clock direction. Those shots landed outside of the main group. The 300 barrel, even though it is shorter and stiffer did worse.

View attachment 488111

Same test at 30yds would be interesting

 

[Joedirt199]

Trying to keep outside factors from affecting the results like wind and temp. I could do 30 in the yard but got people in the neighborhood doing construction and don't want strangers seeing what I got.

 

[keesbo]

Did you have POI shifts before? Did these tubes make any difference?

The best solution was to mount two barrelbands close to each other

 

[Vetmx]

Yeah bought new from UA. I feel for them (aside from initially blowing me off, which they've made good on now) they're in a bad situation. They only fix the guns, they don't design or build them. This is a design issue: ridiculous little flimsy straw for a barrel, held in place with silly little plastic wagon wheels which cant & move. I have read another post stating that the twist design that FX uses to 'rifle' these little pathetic tubes is too aggressive for the .177 bore, which causes internal cracks, I can fully see that happening, we're talking 4.5mm ID with 7mm OD, that's only a 1.25mm (0.049") wall thickness man. So try us UA may, they can only patch this. In their own words:
"We understand where you are coming from and how frustrating it is. We have talked to FX about this before at length..."

And:

"...many people being willing to do their own fix there just isn't enough demand to create a change"

I have hundreds of other guns (air, rimfire, center fire, black powder) that I tinker with. I didn't want a competition gun that needed to be tinkered with (aside from tuning), let alone re-designing the thing & gluing it together. So yeah we're now talking about a trade in.

This is why I never freak out on the dealer I bought my gun from. Pure and simple, they didn’t build it. And as long as they don’t blow smoke about an issue, I’m cool. We could certainly hold it against them for carrying a brand or model with issues but in the end they didn’t force you to buy it.

It’s unfortunate that FX’s hype train is the preferred mode of travel for guys coming over from powder burner land. I’m not saying to never ride one of those trains, there’s just better choices for a guy who just wants to shoot and not fuss over his gun. I said it before in a DRS topic. My best friend can’t believe how dumb and gullible us airgun guys are. The stuff we let slide for the money we spend is comparable to someone with addiction issues.

 

[bsahogger]

This is why I never freak out on the dealer I bought my gun from. Pure and simple, they didn’t build it. And as long as they don’t blow smoke about an issue, I’m cool. We could certainly hold it against them for carrying a brand or model with issues but in the end they didn’t force you to buy it.

It’s unfortunate that FX’s hype train is the preferred mode of travel for guys coming over from powder burner land. I’m not saying to never ride one of those trains, there’s just better choices for a guy who just wants to shoot and not fuss over his gun. I said it before in a DRS topic. My best friend can’t believe how dumb and gullible us airgun guys are. The stuff we let slide for the money we spend is comparable to someone with addiction issues.

Well said & I can honestly also not believe the FX hype train, never in a million years did I expect this from a brand that's so famous. I've been using Air Arms for more than 15 years, never ever had an issue like this, not even close. I did have exactly the opposite experience with a dealer though: PA sold me a broken AA S510 Ultimate sporter, which went back, came back broken, went back, came back more broken... 6 month long saga & I'll never buy from them again. I also believe Air Arms suffered something catastrophic shortly after Covid: the loss of key employees or something like that. Their quality tanked, their prices skyrocketed & you can hardly buy the product, always "available for pre-order" or "we got just a few in, order fast".
BUT, as you say it is an addiction, so we have to take whatever suffering the hobby throws at us!

 

[SilentSquirrel]

I, for one, can believe the hype around FX
Not that it is necessarily true for every gun they ever produced.
But because of the build quality that earned them that reputation
As an example, consider my Tarantula .
It is a rock solid 22 caliber rifle.
The machining is impeccable, and the gun, finished in gloss black, shows no imperfections
It simply a joy to handle and cock.
In original tune, unregulated, it shoots 4 mags (32 rounds) at an SD of 6.1fps
A laser when shooting, and is more accurate than I am with its Leupold 3-9 AO scope (also gloss)
The walnut stock is sleek and trim

In that era there were other FX guns just, or almost, as good.
And I do think that the innovation and engineering continue at FX today.
And their guns are still of high quality, but over-engineered

That said, it must be admitted that the Dreamline does have poi problems if one is to judge by the volume of posts about them
It's truly a shame that they don't fix it, and even issue a "fix it kit" offered free to owners with guns still under warranty, and a very low cost to others.
Sometimes it seems as if FX knows how to look forward, but not how to look back

Just my 2 scents

Edward

PS
Does anyone know if the Dreamline predecessor, The Streamline, suffers the same poi issues?

 

[Joedirt199]

I think the only one that doesn't is the Royal so if the Streamline uses that barrel system it should be good to go.

 

[bsahogger]

I, for one, can believe the hype around FX
Not that it is necessarily true for every gun they ever produced.
But because of the build quality that earned them that reputation
As an example, consider my Tarantula .
It is a rock solid 22 caliber rifle.
The machining is impeccable, and the gun, finished in gloss black, shows no imperfections
It simply a joy to handle and cock.
In original tune, unregulated, it shoots 4 mags (32 rounds) at an SD of 6.1fps
A laser when shooting, and is more accurate than I am with its Leupold 3-9 AO scope (also gloss)
The walnut stock is sleek and trim

In that era there were other FX guns just, or almost, as good.
And I do think that the innovation and engineering continue at FX today.
And their guns are still of high quality, but over-engineered

That said, it must be admitted that the Dreamline does have poi problems if one is to judge by the volume of posts about them
It's truly a shame that they don't fix it, and even issue a "fix it kit" offered free to owners with guns still under warranty, and a very low cost to others.
Sometimes it seems as if FX knows how to look forward, but not how to look back

Just my 2 scents

Edward

PS
Does anyone know if the Dreamline predecessor, The Streamline, suffers the same poi issues?

Yep I should re-phrase my statement: I can't believe the hype around FX if they dish up something as atrocious as this .177 Dreamline, considering they know how to build a gun & how important the barrel is. If it was their first gun, fair enough, but this is inexcusable .
I agree with the free fix option: they can still get away with their flimsy cheap design, just make some spacers out of extruded aluminum. Extrusions are extremely cheap. Two of these, about the same length & look as the spools you buy cotton thread on, obviously smaller in diameter & with plastic set screws so they don't move.
Anyway, not my problem, I'm moving on to something that works.

 

[SilentSquirrel]

I think the only one that doesn't is the Royal so if the Streamline uses that barrel system it should be good to go.

Really!
You think EVERY other FX experiences poi shifts?
That's certainly not true of my Crown MKII, 177, 600mm barrel.
Nor is it true of my Crown MkII, 22, 380 barrel
Maybe I'm just lucky
or such a bad shooter it goes un-noticed

Edward

 

[SilentSquirrel]

Yep I should re-phrase my statement: I can't believe the hype around FX if they dish up something as atrocious as this .177 Dreamline, considering they know how to build a gun & how important the barrel is. If it was their first gun, fair enough, but this is inexcusable .
I agree with the free fix option: they can still get away with their flimsy cheap design, just make some spacers out of extruded aluminum. Extrusions are extremely cheap. Two of these, about the same length & look as the spools you buy cotton thread on, obviously smaller in diameter & with plastic set screws so they don't move.
Anyway, not my problem, I'm moving on to something that works.

@bsahogger
If you want a 177 in a traditional rifle format, may I suggest/recommend a Daystate Revere.
Regulated or not they are very well crafted rifles.

 

[Joedirt199]

Really!
You think EVERY other FX experiences poi shifts?
That's certainly not true of my Crown MKII, 177, 600mm barrel.
Nor is it true of my Crown MkII, 22, 380 barrel
Maybe I'm just lucky
or such a bad shooter it goes un-noticed

Edward

I see reports for more of the current crop of FX but next to none in the older models with the steel barrel sleeve and oring setup.

 

[Joedirt199]

Day 2 500mm tank start pressure was 180 bar, reg 106 bar 1st shot 819 fps, 2nd 851 fps and 3rd 849 fps. Group was high and to the left of the original group.

300mm 185 bar on tank, 97 bar reg, 1st shot 711, 2nd 717, 3rd 726. First group was pretty close to the original and the bumped group stayed together. The 300 has all kinds of extra carbon tubing to stiffen it. Guns stayed in the basement and shot indoors between groups.

 

[Joedirt199]

I like that FX's fix to the barrel problem was a plastic sleeve that sits between the shroud and the reg/plenum.

 

[turbospud]

the only way to cure fx poi shifts is to move it on,
buy a gun with a proper barrel and then live a happy life

let someone else have the stress and grief of poor design and quality control

 

[bsahogger]

the only way to cure fx poi shifts is to move it on,
buy a gun with a proper barrel and then live a happy life

let someone else have the stress and grief of poor design and quality control

Yep, that's where we're at. Emphasis on something with an actual barrel: Liner? Never again for me.

 

[bsahogger]

Another week has dragged by & after me insisting on a reply I finally got this super disappointing response from Utah Airguns:

"We can offer you $675.00 on trade in towards another airgun. Due to the circumstances, I the offer is 10% more than I normally offer."

So I pay $1500 for a gun which has a latent defect, now I get to trade it in for this pitiful amount, nice.

 

[Joedirt199]

Don't worry it will get listed as used for $1200