FX Superior liners - are they done right?

[Seeker]

Hi,

Please take a look at the leading marks of these liners:

It is evident there are no lands at the very end of the bore (EDIT: muzzle end, crown). I checked a couple of liners in multiple calibers and they are all like that. I think it may be dictated by the production process of making the rifling from the outside. They can't make the rifling to the very end because it would make a constriction there as there is no more material at the very end of the barrel - the material is from one side only so the steel would react in a different way there. However, there is no problem to remove the very end of the choke using a lathe and recrown. It is more expensive in production but can it help with precision?

If you exaggerate that the liner is like here:

What's your opinion on that?

Thanks!

 

[MartyMcFly]

The FX liners are done by pressing from the outside so the internal lands marks should be minimal but just enough to make the pellet spin. It’s hard to tell from the picture but maybe the lands go all the to the end but the pellet residue doesn’t stay in the very last part because it gets blown out with the pellet thus making it look like there are no lands at the end.

That said, it is hard to justify that a fraction of millimeter of additional lands would have an impact on accuracy…but who knows for sure without testing it.

-Marty

 

[tor47]

It is probably a design feature. I noticed when I pushed slug through my .177 slugliner, the slug seems to be shaped back to its original form when getting through the choke. It does not have a polygonal cross section, as it did on the older pellet liner.

 

[Seeker]

The FX liners are done by pressing from the outside so the internal lands marks should be minimal but just enough to make the pellet spin. It’s hard to tell from the picture but maybe the lands go all the to the end but the pellet residue doesn’t stay in the very last part because it gets blown out with the pellet thus making it look like there are no lands at the end.

That said, it is hard to justify that a fraction of millimeter of additional lands would have an impact on accuracy…but who knows for sure without testing it.

-Marty

The lands are missing from the last 1mm+ of the barrel. The most critical part determining the accuracy.

 

[Seeker]

the slug seems to be shaped back to its original form when getting through the choke

So no land marks. How can it be correct?

 

[Scotty1]

How different is the breech end of the barrel? I’d imaging its much the same? Maybe obvious, but they can go in backwards.
I’ll check my only loose liner when I get out to my garage/shop.

 

[N1neWivesSniper]

What's more ridiculous is that they work so well..

 

[tor47]

So no land marks. How can it be correct?

That is correct. I am just speculate here, but I would guess that is one of the "secret" design features of the later generation liners. The lands seems to be gradually removed on the end of the choke, where they are almost none existent all at the end. I would guess since they are only completely removed the last few mm, the slug, or pellet will still rotate as it leave the barrell.

 

[boscoebrea]

Many target barrels have no lands in the last 1/2" or so in the barrel,do not need them,plus it protects the linings,called counter-bore.
What they say<"the proof is in the pudding",in this case how good is said barrel shooting?
It is correct because it works, sometimes when the grooves and lands go all the way to the end of the barrel it is not a good thing.
What is important is how the projectile comes out of the barrel,the only thing that matters is that it comes out True,want no interference with the straight and correct flight of the pellet.
I admit this may not apply,don't know why it wouldn't.

 

[tor47]

Here is a picture of a .177 JSB knockout pushed trough a pellet, and a slug liner, with a rod, . I do not have the best camera, but the pellet liner is on the left, and the slug liner to the right. There is no landmarks to be seen on the one pushed through the slugliner. On the seccond picture the pellet liner is on the top, and the slugliner on the bottom. Both are thight when pushed through at the choke, but the slugliner seems to reshape the slug to its original form. When the lands are gradually removed at the end, the cross section becomes sircular instead of polygonal shaped. It looks like your a pellet liner, has the same feature, as FX probably make small changes as theire production goes allong.

 

[bigHUN]

Uhm, how to start me playing smart and not get flagged the other way around. Much easier to start from a perspective of a machining process, with next step in mind - sizing pellets.
- the liners "rifling twist rate" are pushed from outside along the entire length of the liner, but stops before the START end.
- the MFG then use a "LEAD-IN" cutter for a given pellet size (dedicated OD) to create a pocket at the Start END = breach lead-in.
- that "pocket" is a counterbored hole most likely used an end-mill with some corner radius, and most likely ends with a sharp - cutted edge.
- the transition between LEAD-IN pocket to rifling has/got an edge.
- that edge must be blended, and the MFG maybe skipped that step - or maybe not - to BLEND out that specific sharp edge only.
- MFG doesn't know what pellet - or projectitile you will be using - so called this process as a "courtesy" from their side leave it as is !!! and this is the most important point where you go next.
Going forward step in step.
The goal is to have a pellet "french kiss" only the rifling for best performance = not going into details of the effects deep diving or riding only the rifling...
So we got into the dimensioning, what is a rifling dimension and what is a pellet head dimension.
The best is to have a consistent friction along the rifling.
But the MFG doesn't know what size of pellet you will be using ???
They made a "GENERIC" LEAD-IN" diameter and coincidentally with an edge in between the pocket and rifling.
That edge must be taken out !!! for best performance.

Do you have a dremmel? Take a filz + 400 grit diamond compound and polish out the edge inside pocket the transition in between "lead-in" and "rifling" land.
A next step would be re-sizing-pellets, but sorry folks that would be another science class

Sorry guys I expanded wider then expected to audiences, but any machinist can just take a very last sentence and go from there

Seeker, we can talk about this a lot, but - brandy and a cigar next time we meat ​

 

[Seeker]

How different is the breech end of the barrel? I’d imaging its much the same? Maybe obvious, but they can go in backwards.
I’ll check my only loose liner when I get out to my garage/shop.

The breach end has regular taper and there is obviously no choke. What is more the breech end is marked with a circle. It is hard to put the liner incorrectly.

Many target barrels have no lands in the last 1/2" or so in the barrel,do not need them,plus it protects the linings,called counter-bore.

Really? I have never heard such barrels leave any factory. Counterboring is used to get rid of the damaged rifling at the muzzle - that is what I heard. What is more - the counterbore does not touch the projectile at all.

Here is a picture of a .177 JSB knockout pushed trough a pellet, and a slug liner, with a rod, . I do not have the best camera, but the pellet liner is on the left, and the slug liner to the right. There is no landmarks to be seen on the one pushed through the slugliner. On the seccond picture the pellet liner is on the top, and the slugliner on the bottom. Both are thight when pushed through at the choke, but the slugliner seems to reshape the slug to its original form. When the lands are gradually removed at the end, the cross section becomes sircular instead of polygonal shaped. It looks like your a pellet liner, has the same feature, as FX probably make small changes as theire production goes allong.

View attachment 328944

View attachment 328945

Look how a slug which I pushed into the choke looks like:

So it seems this is a new rifling type called Anti-SmoothTwist. SmoothTwist had the rifling at the end of the bore and Anti-SmoothTwist has the rifling everywhere except for the end of the bore.

This is really funny. I wonder how it can be correct. The barrels shoot like crap with slugs hence my doubts if FX know what they do.

 

[tor47]

The barrels shoot like crap with slugs hence my doubts if FX know what they do.

Is it a slugliner you got?

 

[Seeker]

Uhm, how to start me playing smart and not get flagged the other way around. Much easier to start from a perspective of a machining process, with next step in mind - sizing pellets.
- the liners "rifling twist rate" are pushed from outside along the entire length of the liner, but stops before the START end.
- the MFG then use a "LEAD-IN" cutter for a given pellet size (dedicated OD) to create a pocket at the Start END = breach lead-in.
- that "pocket" is a counterbored hole most likely used an end-mill with some corner radius, and most likely ends with a sharp - cutted edge.
- the transition between LEAD-IN pocket to rifling has/got an edge.
- that edge must be blended, and the MFG maybe skipped that step - or maybe not - to BLEND out that specific sharp edge only.
- MFG doesn't know what pellet - or projectitile you will be using - so called this process as a "courtesy" from their side leave it as is !!! and this is the most important point where you go next.
Going forward step in step.
The goal is to have a pellet "french kiss" only the rifling for best performance = not going into details of the effects deep diving or riding only the rifling...
So we got into the dimensioning, what is a rifling dimension and what is a pellet head dimension.
The best is to have a consistent friction along the rifling.
But the MFG doesn't know what size of pellet you will be using ???
They made a "GENERIC" LEAD-IN" diameter and coincidentally with an edge in between the pocket and rifling.
That edge must be taken out !!! for best performance.

Do you have a dremmel? Take a filz + 400 grit diamond compound and polish out the edge inside pocket the transition in between "lead-in" and "rifling" land.
A next step would be re-sizing-pellets, but sorry folks that would be another science class

Sorry guys I expanded wider then expected to audiences, but any machinist can just take a very last sentence and go from there

Seeker, we can talk about this a lot, but - brandy and a cigar next time we meat ​

Please note the pictures which I posted show the crown, not the loading port.

 

[Seeker]

Is it a slugliner you got?

Yes. .22 slugliner. I also have both slug and pellet liners in .30. Slug liners in .30 leave the rifling marks on the slug.

 

[MACTEN]

Mine go all the way to the crown. Or do they?

 

[tor47]

Yes. .22 slugliner. I also have both slug and pellet liners in .30. Slug liners in .30 leave the rifling marks on the slug.

Well I can not say why you have bad groups, but I believe it is not because of the none existing rifling marks. That is normal, but the older gen liners probably had them, so there is differences. Slugs are never a guaranteed succes no matter what barrels are used.

 

[Scotty1]

Mine appears to go to the end.

 

[bigHUN]

Please note the pictures which I posted show the crown, not the loading port.

Sorry for misunderstanding. I had to read again the OP but only when you said so.
So the land marks doesn't end to the very end to the muzzle? That is fine, the rifling was not cut but pressed in, so the "rifling geometry" ends with some sort of radius - just before the edge to the Crown.
I don't think that has any negative effect - as that would be with any other "ordinary rifling". The "ordinary rifling" need to have an ending in Crown for even edge length, but the FX liner I don't think applies.
{as a side note only, I would assume FX investigated this fenomena and if there would be questionable "issues" a multi-million company would take care of...
Me usually polish the FX liners with polishing both ends as well = I don't stop at the Crown.
I have 6 liners in x600 and x700. STX-A and Superior and Superior Heavy, not the lead-in and not the Crown at muzzle end two the same. And I am shooting average sub MOA @ 100

 

[Loff]

I have two liner on table:
1. .177, 500mm, STX Superior
2. .177, 500mm, STX Superior Heavy

1. The muzzle end is polygonal shape.
2. The muzzle end is maybe polygonal shape, what I mean is that my brain and my eyes probably want me to see polygon.

1. Can push through pellets and JSB KO slug in 13.43gr but 20gr ZAN slug got stuck in the first 1" (from lead-in side).
2. Can push through pellets and slugs and 20gr ZAN slug also, with no excessive force needed. Heavy liner feels bigger ID by that push-through test.

From left to right - KO 13.43gr from Superior; KO 13.43gr from superior heavy; 20gr ZAN from superior heavy