Geometry of Pellet Rolling

Accuracy of Pellet Rolling Thread

I have a geometric proof which shows (given a perfect rolling method):

  1. Two pellets with differing head diameters can not roll to the same place.
  2. Two pellets with differing skirt diameters can not roll to the same place.
  3. Two pellets with different distances between the bearing surfaces (head and skirt) can not roll to the same place.
    [/LIST=1]

    There is one exception to this proof. That is detailed in the second diagram.

    By all means if you can find an error in this proof I want to know what it is because I am still trying to fully understand the limitations of this method.

    proof1.1631903219.jpg


    The exception:

    proof2.1631903240.jpg


    I'll leave further discussion of implementation for later in the thread.
 
This does not address your specific question but I think it is a useful observation. With 3 variables each having influence over the rolling radius, there is the potential for them to combine in ways that 2 pellets with differing physical characteristics will sometimes produce the same result (sort into the same batch). For example, a pellet with a larger head and smaller skirt may roll to the same point as one with a larger head but a greater distance between the head and skirt.

Given the goal is for the sorting to produce groups of pellets that are practically identical to each other, there would need to be additional sorting criteria applied...in which case we are perhaps back to measuring each dimension individually.

...which then prompts us to wonder which of them is really important. Are they all equally important or are some more important than others? And if so, to what extent? Can we rank order them? Will pretty much all barrels or states of tune express an affinity for one quality over the rest?

Shall we add ovality to the list to make it 4 variables?


 
Ok good. Lets first make sure we understand the proof and then we can add in additional problems which would be problems of implementation. Maybe I have the proof wrong. Lets work on that.

Look at the second diagram. If we reduce r2 so that h1 moves away from the pellet and then we reduce r1 to bring h1 back to the same distance the diameter of the pellet reduces. When we place the pellet on the table the intersection of h1 and the table surface has now moved and we are no longer indexed. If you make those dimensional changes the slope must change. If you index to a specific spot on the table every time, the difference in slope will force the pellet to roll to a different place.

If we maintain the same slope but increase or decrease the diameter of the pellet, h1 moves relative to the index.

Here is a better explaination

Does that make sense?

Regarding your other question, are they equally significant, I suppose that would take more study but I'd speculate they are not. For example the diameter of thin skirts must certainly change when hit with that blast of compressed air and likely all wind up about the same by the time they are leaving the bore. I would think the length of the skirt and a good clean exit from the bore would be more important than the diameter of the skirt but again I am speculating on that.

Someone poke akuric maybe he can shed some light on this problem? I'll take all the help I can get.

I also have some data from Yarrah which might be useful in this lwhen we get to the implementation part of the topic. Here it is:

Harrys-Data.1631913639.jpg


When it matters we can use that information to determine the level of accuracy we can expect from a roller made to his specs.
 
I love to shoot because I have a Short attention span and it does not take me long to pull the trigger.

The basics are simple to learn,it is like 1-2-3 fire...I am only saying these because,I ain't got time to be rolling no pellet,when I can be shooting it.

As far as YrraH I miss his wonderful posts and for-sure-much can be learned from them...

I am glad that guys such as you can take the time to do those experiments and I do Lean for them,Thank you.
 
I love to shoot because I have a Short attention span and it does not take me long to pull the trigger.

The basics are simple to learn,it is like 1-2-3 fire...I am only saying these because,I ain't got time to be rolling no pellet,when I can be shooting it.

As far as YrraH I miss his wonderful posts and for-sure-much can be learned from them...

I am glad that guys such as you can take the time to do those experiments and I do Lean for them,Thank you.

There are a lot of us who feel that way on this forum some of us are afraid to get stomped by the elephants. Some of us are not smart enough to stay out of the way of the elephants I fall into the latter camp.

It will be good if we can work through this and get a really solid understanding of what exactly this rolling measures. There is plenty of evidence even good documentation at this point that it does work. That in spite of what some others may say.

The argument that the test results I got with a piston rifle shooting bad pellets can't be valid because I was using a piston rifle shooting bad pellets is a circular argument. I picked that piston rifle because it's more accurate than any PCP I own. I picked the bad pellets to magnify the errors in the test data so that I could measure them with more certainty. What are we trying to do here? Oh yeah! select good pellets from bad pellets.

The only thing that would ever actually change in the results of that with better pellets and a better rifle is the magnitude of the errors. As we have indeed seen the errors become smaller and less detectable even when using better more accurate rifles.

The real question is is it worthwhile and I think that is going to vary with the specific pursuit at the shooter is engaged in.

Thanks for the encouragement.

So what I'm trying to do now is figure out exactly what is it that this rolling method differentiates upon. it's a complicated problem it's not an easy problem. Like nervous trig said it's three variables that that are being measured.
 
Now your getting me to Think! Truthfully I did to want to,my thought is ; pressure acting against the pellet skirt would flair it against the barrel lining.

Thus the "wobble " would be caused by an uneven flair once outside the barrel.....the pressure inside the barrel is acting like a press against the pellet thus forming it..

There are dies to help standardize the pellets you are using....The goal is to have every pellet you choose to use to be uniform.

Rolling the pellets is for the Few who have the patience to do so,and rolling the pellets is not the best way, because there are too many factors that can screw it up.

Now if you have no dies and want to shoot what you have more accurately go for it;or you can buy the target pellets,lot more money,but may be worth it.

Remember the barrel and air power is acting against the pellet to not only push it out of the barrel ,but to also form it....that is another reason some pellets work better than others in the same rifle.....the twist rate,the content of lead,the fps the shape of pellets the air turbulence cause by the exist..

Darn there I go again,I needed to do a butch of yard work,now it is getting too dark....

I would Buy your pellets if you choose to make them.




 
@oldcrow/oldspook/corpone, I've been told before that I miss the forest for the trees, and I think you might have a little bit of that tendency too.....But I'm bored and awake so I'll bite (again). 

Going with your geometry discussion....

In a perfect world, the "rolling" method SHOULD show any differences between the diameter of the two bearing surfaces of the pellet (greatest circumference of the head and the skirt). The theory being that by "rolling" a person could cull out the pellets that don't fall into the same ratio as the majority of their tin mates, or rather, cull out the edges of the bell curve of head/skirt diameter in a given tin of pellets. 

perfect situation.1631946151.jpg


A big factor that you're not accounting for, is the axis of the pellet. Recent posts from nolimits helped me envision this. Any random selection of flying pellets, ie spinning pellets, MUST have their axis points perfectly centered in those two bearing surfaces in order to fly predictably. ("fly predictably" equaling accuracy and precision)

These are exaggerated examples, but anything like below SHOULD be sortable through rolling (I'm picturing clown car wheels with the axle not in the center of the wheel). But you were able to make the case for how difficult it is to get repeatable results with the rolling process. So there are factors at play within the rolling process that make its application harder in practice than on paper (pun towards all your proofs and napkin math intended)

axis point issues.1631946437.jpg
more axis point issues.1631946437.jpg


There's also the question of obturation that was raised in the previous couple of comments on this post. 

obturation and center of gravity.1631946861.jpg
oburation pellet thickness.1631946861.jpg


These last illustrations show the types of changes from batch to batch that JSB is notorious for. They change skirt depths, waist diameters/skirt angles/skirt thicknesses/etc, while keeping the same weight and name/label. None of those changes are going to show up in a roll test if the diameters of the bearing surfaces stay the same as the previous batch (assuming the axis point is correctly located in the center of the pellet). In theory, the head and skirt sizes and ratios could remain the same, but the differences in the skirt thickness and center of gravity are going to change how the pellet obturates, and therefore, its flying shape. 

They guys who really know what they're talking about when it comes to this stuff will tell you that sometimes a batch of pellets with no discernible defects will shoot like crap. I think you're at that crossroad between theory and application. The theories only get us so far, actual shooting and testing is still necessary to get concrete answers as to whether a particular batch of pellets will shoot well from a particular gun and a particular barrel at a particular speed and at a particular distance (or distances).

As bosco said, there are simply too many factors at play. 

(edit: I just saw the "accuracy" comment you seem to have left me. Wow, drinking tonight? I've not left any accuracy comments, negative or otherwise, on any of your various profiles. And Mike's not my hero, respect the guy in the context of his achievements in the airgun community? Yes, but I don't know him well enough to categorize him as a "hero." For example, will he run into a burning building to save someone's life? Dunno.) 
 
@oldcrow/oldspook/corpone, I've been told before that I miss the forest for the trees, and I think you might have a little bit of that tendency too.....But I'm bored and awake so I'll bite (again). 

Going with your geometry discussion....

In a perfect world, the "rolling" method SHOULD show any differences between the diameter of the two bearing surfaces of the pellet (greatest circumference of the head and the skirt). The theory being that by "rolling" a person could cull out the pellets that don't fall into the same ratio as the majority of their tin mates, or rather, cull out the edges of the bell curve of head/skirt diameter in a given tin of pellets. 

perfect situation.1631946151.jpg


A big factor that you're not accounting for, is the axis of the pellet. Recent posts from nolimits helped me envision this. Any random selection of flying pellets, ie spinning pellets, MUST have their axis points perfectly centered in those two bearing surfaces in order to fly predictably. ("fly predictably" equaling accuracy and precision)

These are exaggerated examples, but anything like below SHOULD be sortable through rolling (I'm picturing clown car wheels with the axle not in the center of the wheel). But you were able to make the case for how difficult it is to get repeatable results with the rolling process. So there are factors at play within the rolling process that make its application harder in practice than on paper (pun towards all your proofs and napkin math intended)

axis point issues.1631946437.jpg
more axis point issues.1631946437.jpg


There's also the question of obturation that was raised in the previous couple of comments on this post. 

obturation and center of gravity.1631946861.jpg
oburation pellet thickness.1631946861.jpg


These last illustrations show the types of changes from batch to batch that JSB is notorious for. They change skirt depths, waist diameters/skirt angles/skirt thicknesses/etc, while keeping the same weight and name/label. None of those changes are going to show up in a roll test if the diameters of the bearing surfaces stay the same as the previous batch (assuming the axis point is correctly located in the center of the pellet). In theory, the head and skirt sizes and ratios could remain the same, but the differences in the skirt thickness and center of gravity are going to change how the pellet obturates, and therefore, its flying shape. 

They guys who really know what they're talking about when it comes to this stuff will tell you that sometimes a batch of pellets with no discernible defects will shoot like crap. I think you're at that crossroad between theory and application. The theories only get us so far, actual shooting and testing is still necessary to get concrete answers as to whether a particular batch of pellets will shoot well from a particular gun and a particular barrel at a particular speed and at a particular distance (or distances).

As bosco said, there are simply too many factors at play. 

(edit: I just saw the "accuracy" comment you seem to have left me. Wow, drinking tonight? I've not left any accuracy comments, negative or otherwise, on any of your various profiles. And Mike's not my hero, respect the guy in the context of his achievements in the airgun community? Yes, but I don't know him well enough to categorize him as a "hero." For example, will he run into a burning building to save someone's life? Dunno.)

Welp you are up late. No clue about your green balls sorry. I have heard "Bag Balm" helps with that problem. Maybe some imaginary friend?🤭

Onward! Thank you for your thoughts. I have been milling some of those matters over myself. I am pleased to think I have provoked some response other than "It is useless."

Let's take one step at a time. First it has been shown repeatedly now that rolling pellets does produce groups which shoot better and groups which shoot worse. Even Mike has said it does but that he does not know why. It would be nice to know why.

Second to discover that we should try to understand what we are sorting by in the first place. These "things we are not testing" are informative after we know how rolling works, when we want to answer questions like, "why did that happen?" Or "we know what did not cause that, what could be the cause?". They are infact reasons that sorting sometimes fails and you get a flier anyway.

Third the assertions that axial symmetry is not being tested, or that weight distribution does not affect the roll of the pellet under a dynamic test are not supported well enough YET. Let's take things one at a time.

I asked a very specific question about the proof because I am testing the proof itself. I want to be sure that I understand counter examples like the one nervoustrig raised.

We have seen that it works. We have not yet proven what it differentiates upon. I have tried to specify all the criteria that influence the outcomes. Now I need help showing what exceptions to the proof exist. We are a long way from addressing weight distribution perhaps not so far from discussing the effects of axial symmetry. 

So what do you think of the question nervoustrig brought up?


 
First it has been shown repeatedly now that rolling pellets does produce groups which shoot better....

False.

From the "results" that I've seen you share, the p value is pretty dang high. 




Well, I dunno, you could do the test for yourself and get different numbers that disagree with mine or I suppose you could just continue to troll threads like this one beating a little tin drum shouting "IT DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO." I have run the test several times now. I get a consistent improvement. Usually it varies between 15% and 30% reduction of group diameter.

Regarding the standard deviations I post with my work they are the standard deviation of the DIAMETER, not the radius. They have to be halved to get the correct SD for the radius... but whatever.

If you are gonna troll me ... do it in a different thread ... YOU are dragging the thread off topic. Go start your own. Call it "Cornpone/Oldspook/OldDog/Berryville/Cr4k4/OldCrow is an idiot and I think he is wrong"... I'll jump right in there with you.
 
First it has been shown repeatedly now that rolling pellets does produce groups which shoot better....

False.

From the "results" that I've seen you share, the p value is pretty dang high. 





If you are gonna troll me ... do it in a different thread ... YOU are dragging the thread off topic. Go start your own. Call it "Cornpone/Oldspook/OldDog/Berryville/Cr4k4/OldCrow is an idiot and I think he is wrong"... I'll jump right in there with you.

I don't think that is a complete list but if I have to kill someone it is going to be YOU Cr4k4, so watch it! ;) :p

Now can we get back on topic, Franklink? Please. Answer the question I asked you? or did you even read the whole response?
 
...
In a perfect world, the "rolling" method SHOULD show any differences between the diameter of the two bearing surfaces of the pellet (greatest circumference of the head and the skirt). The theory being that by "rolling" a person could cull out the pellets that don't fall into the same ratio as the majority of their tin mates, or rather, cull out the edges of the bell curve of head/skirt diameter in a given tin of pellets. 
...

Let's put the RATIO assertion to bed... Rolling WILL differentiate between two pellets whose slope is identical if they are a different diameter.

same-slope-different-diameter.1631984989.jpg


This also implies that two pellets which DO NOT have the same slope CAN NOT roll around the same point if they are indexed at a common point. This is true because we are not rolling the pellet upon it's axis of rotation. We are rolling it at an angle offset from that axis and that offset is directly dependent upon both radii of the pellet.

By that same logic we can assert that two pellets which are indexed to the same spot CAN NOT roll to the same place unless they have the same slope and the same diameter. They must be identical.

Barring someone coming along and showing me that I am indeed a damn fool, I am going to start talking about the practical limits of a real world implementation using the data that Yrrah has provided in the image linked above. With some trepidation I remain open to correction.

I will start another thread for that purpose and link it here when I have done it.