Gyroscopic Stability

This is going to be the most technical of the threads on pellet or slug stability. I am going to try to explain how gyroscopic stability works. It is a relatively simple phenomenon, easy to demonstrate in a 3D environment, but not easy to show on a 2D screen. Some people misunderstand what gyroscopic stability does to their pellets. Gyroscopic stability does not keep a pellet or any other spin stabilized projectile pointing in the same direction as the barrel. Gyroscopic stability turns a projectile to face directly into the airflow. In this way, a projectile can follow the curve of a trajectory.

If there is gross gyroscopic over stability, then the projectile has problems in being able to turn to follow the trajectory and will try to keep pointing in the direction of the barrel. However, the levels of gyroscopic over stability required to reach this state are unlikely to be attained by pellets or any other airgun fired projectile unless it is fired straight up into the air or from the top of Mount Everest. It has also been suggested that gyroscopic over stability is a cause of spiralling. I cannot see how gyroscopic over stability can be a cause of pellet spiralling, particularly as I have encountered over stable projectiles, and they drifted sideways by a long way rather than develop an apparent spiral. The other factor against this theory is that the level of gyroscopic stability required is about a factor of ten higher than seen on pellets, even at long ranges from pellets fired at high speeds.

In order to try to explain how spin stabilization works, I want you to imagine a pellet which is not pointing directly into the airflow, it is at an angle of yaw (fig 1). The angle is shown as being vertically up, but it could be in any direction.

Gyro1.jpg

Figure 1

The object of any type of stabilization is to try to reduce the angle of yaw. Spin stabilization achieves this through a feedback system. For a pellet at yaw a lateral force is created by the airflow around the body usually centred at a point behind the centre of gravity (CG) called the centre of pressure (CP). The lateral force produces an aerodynamic moment about the CG. It is the aerodynamic moment which is important.

It is a popular misconception that stability is dependent on forces. It is not. Stability is all about moments (torque) about the CG, not forces. Yes, forces are required but only in that they are one component of the moment, the other, in the case of aerodynamic moments, being the distance between the CP and the CG. If you had an infinite force acting through the CG, it would make no contribution to stability, as the moment about the CG would be zero. Similarly, gyroscopes react to moments, not forces, when they change their attitude.

When a spinning projectile is subjected to an aerodynamic moment as in figure 1 the gyroscopic reaction is to cause the projectile to yaw about the CG, not in the same direction as the applied moment as you would expect, but in a direction at ninety degrees as shown in figure 2.

gyro2.jpg

Figure 2

In figure 2 you are looking directly at the front of the pellet coming towards you with right hand spin. As a result of the movement of the pellet about the CG, we now have the original vertical yaw angle from figure 1 and a second yaw angle caused by the gyroscopic reaction at ninety degrees to the original angle as seen in figure 3.

gyro3a.JPG

Figure 3

The pellet now has a sideways yaw angle as well as the original vertical one. As a result of the new yaw angle to the side, the pellet will have a new aerodynamic side force, causing a sideways aerodynamic moment about the pellet CG. This new aerodynamic moment will produce a gyroscopic reaction in a vertical direction as can be seen in figure 4.

gyro3b.JPG

Figure 4

As can be seen in figure 4 the gyroscopic reaction to the new sideways aerodynamic moment is to reduce the original vertical yaw angle. The reduction in the vertical angle will in turn reduce the sideways yaw angle as the aerodynamic moment is getting less, reducing the gyroscopic reaction. Thus, both yaw angles are reducing (figure 5) and the pellet is getting closer to pointing directly into the airflow as a stable pellet should.

gyro5.jpg

Figure 5

All the figures have shown how a spinning pellet reacts. Pellets are usually aerodynamically stable, i.e. the CP lies behind the CG. Slugs and bullets are generally aerodynamically unstable and have a CP in front of the CG. This causes differences, but the fundamental mechanism remains the same. For example, if we are looking at our pellet from the back as it flies away from us, an upwards vertical yaw will cause the pellet to yaw to the left as a result of the gyroscopic reaction. A slug or bullet will yaw to the right, not the left, as a result of being aerodynamically unstable. I will leave an explanation of this to another post, as this one is quite long and complicated enough for now.
 
@Ballisticboy Absolutely fantastic post! Could you please provide one or two sentence definitions at the intro for the following terms to make your post a little easier to absorb.
“Gross gyroscopic over stability”
“Yaw”
“centre of gravity”
“centre of pressure”
“aerodynamic moment”

And I’m a little unclear on the difference between force vs moment. Is this something acting on the object vs an internal existing ‘force’?? Thank you!
 
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@Ballisticboy Absolutely fantastic post! Could you please provide one or two sentence definitions at the intro for the following terms to make your post a little easier to absorb.
“Gross gyroscopic over stability”
“Yaw”
“centre of gravity”
“centre of pressure”
“aerodynamic moment”

And I’m a little unclear on the difference between force vs moment. Is this something acting on the object vs an internal existing ‘force’?? Thank you!
The centre of gravity is the point in any object where the weight appears to act. If you balance any object on a knife edge, the centre of gravity must be above the knife edge, otherwise it will fall off.

No projectile or any other flying object is ever pointing directly in the direction in which the air is approaching it. Yaw is simply the angle between the direction in which the projectile is pointing and the direction of the airflow hitting the projectile.

For a definition and diagrams of centre of pressure, see the start of this thread. https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/aerodynamic-stability-of-pellets.1276895/ It is basically the point on any flying object through which the aerodynamic forces, mainly the forces at right angles to the air flow direction, are assumed to act.

For a force and moment, think about a very tight wheel nut on your car. If you just push on it, it does not matter how hard you push, it will not undo. Now if you put a short torque wrench onto the nut and stand on it, it may still not undo, but if you put a long torque wrench on it, it will undo easily. A moment is a combination of a force and the arm length between the force and the place where you are trying to apply a torque. For projectiles, the place you are normally putting a torque on is the centre of gravity. The aerodynamic moments are just the torque the aerodynamic forces are making about the centre of gravity, normally the aerodynamic force multiplied by the distance between the centre of gravity and the centre of pressure.

See my post below for gross over stability.
 
This brings up the question of how does this relate to barrel twist rate ? some are designed at 12 or 14 or 17.5 for the same caliber pellet ? Is this the reason we hunt through many brands and weights for "the right pellet for this barrel ?
The questions about twist rates require a whole lot more threads to explain fully. I hope I can post a few in the future.

Gyroscopic stability is basically down to the balance between the gyroscopic moments and the aerodynamic moments about the centre of gravity. The aerodynamic moments are produced by the forward speed and the shape of the projectile. The gyroscopic moments at the muzzle are produced by the barrel twist rate and the speed of the projectile. If the twist rate is too low, the gyroscopic moments will be too low and the projectile will be unstable. If the twist rate is too high, the projectile will be too stable and will be slow to change the direction in which it is pointing, giving large group sizes. If the twist rate is much too high, you may get gross over stability where the projectile cannot alter its angle at all, which means, as it flies down its trajectory, it cannot turn to face the airflow, leading to large accuracy errors, and the projectile flying sideways, which can be embarrassing if they land going backwards in a farmers field (particularly when they are 155mm shells).

Twist rates are not really the reason why we have to hunt for the perfect pellets for our guns. It may have some bearing, but the main reason is that basically the aerodynamics and ballistics of the diabolo pellet are lousy, and the only way we can obtain the groups we desire is by finding a particular batch that happen to match the dimensions of our particular barrel. I have always maintained that it is not barrels that are pellet fussy, it is pellets that are barrel fussy.
 
Did you ran an FEA?
Not for this post, it is just a matter of the basics behind gyroscopic stability and trying to show them in a two-dimensional way. I have a little rig, made many years ago by Gerald Cardew to help him understand it himself, which demonstrates it very easily, but I don't think I would make a very interesting presenter on YouTube.

I have access to a NATO standard six degree of freedom trajectory model which uses FEA type methods for the calculations of the detail flight behaviour of pellets and slugs. It requires a large amount of detailed data, which simply does not exist for most pellets or slugs. I have produced the data for a few designs from a mixture of flight analysis and aerodynamic prediction, as is the standard method for large calibre projectiles and fire control systems for the armed forces. I use the model to show the effects of different gun or projectile based errors and properties,, which would be very difficult if not impossible, to show through firing.
 
@Ballisticboy,
How does increasing the moment of intertia for a projectile affect gyroscopic stability, assuming the same overall weight?

For example, suppose you had a new hollow slug design that was essentially a thick walled pipe except for a solid base. The forward end might be tapered in an ogive, but as much mass as is practical is moved to the outer periphery. Seems to me, given the same mass, and therefore similar velocity and rotational speed, wouldn't it be more stabile in flight?
 
@Ballisticboy,
How does increasing the moment of intertia for a projectile affect gyroscopic stability, assuming the same overall weight?

For example, suppose you had a new hollow slug design that was essentially a thick walled pipe except for a solid base. The forward end might be tapered in an ogive, but as much mass as is practical is moved to the outer periphery. Seems to me, given the same mass, and therefore similar velocity and rotational speed, wouldn't it be more stabile in flight?
Tubular projectiles have been around for some time, both in small arms and for tank guns. The biggest problem is too much stability, which is not good for group size or for the vertical error in a crosswind, unless you have a very low twist rate barrel to reduce stability. Good projectile design is all a matter of balance between the aerodynamic and the inertial moments about the CG.
 
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BB, thanks for this post. Not that I have a good understanding of it all but its neat to know that we have someone with an experts knowledge on this subject to ask our questions!

This is a fun story I want to share. ELR with centerfires became "a thing" over on SH forum about 15 years ago. A certain company started making lathe turned solids and experimented with many designs of very long super high BC bullets and also the appropriate barrels with different twist rates for those projectiles. The guy who did the testing would often shoot at night (in the calm) somewhere in the neighborhood in excess of a mile away. After much experimenting this Co found a combo that still stayed stable after it transitioned into subsonic. I bought some for my 375CT and man they sailed well waaay out there.

Then a guy from Europe who had access to some sophisticated bullet design program designed a super sleek lathe turned solid which was one wild and (sexy looking, lol) .375 cal projectile and was supposed to have a G1 of 1.5 or some such, and then he promoted it on the forum for sale. A small following of ELR shooters jumped on the bandwagen and ordered the suggested barrels and a bunch of these crazy new projectiles.

6 months went by and we were all excited to see the outcomes. Long story short not one barrel twist combo would work worth a darn. One guy was literally selling these projectiles as novelty items to set on a desk. I bought a few to help out one guy who had bought a thousand of them at around $2 a piece.
Fortunately later on he found other lathe turned solids from other Co's which shot well in his barrel so it wasn't a total loss.

Here it is and a .177 pellet for scale.
20221119_112844.jpg

I know a guy here on AGN that makes slugs which shoot awesome, maybe the best out there, but its funny because it seems that these wouldn't.
 
This brings up the question of how does this relate to barrel twist rate ? some are designed at 12 or 14 or 17.5 for the same caliber pellet ? Is this the reason we hunt through many brands and weights for "the right pellet for this barrel ?
I think it's more of a situation where the gun manufacturers were/are requesting faster twists by the barrel makers to shoot heavier/ or maybe more appropriately - longer pellets, but it seems that because the shape of the pellet isn't like that of the bullet the twist rate isn't as critical as with a bullet?? I mention this because it also seems the current trend is going the other way which is back to slower twist rates for pellets. IIRC some of the top shooters used a very slow twist of 40 in 30 caliber barrels this year in RMAC or EBR. My memory isn't all that good but I believe another brand was experimenting with a slow twist 25 cal barrel as well.

One thing for sure is those huge flyers with the JSB 22 cal 25.4gr MRD's is one of the greatest frustrations in my experiences with airguns. A percentage of BR cards I've shot have been ruined with one or two flyers and some of them would have been fantastic scores had those bad flyers been 10's.
To put this in perspective with my 6mmBR a flyer would still be a 10 on a EBR card at 100Y. A flyer with my pcp and the MRD's could literally miss the outside ring by 4 inches?!
 
BB, thanks for this post. Not that I have a good understanding of it all but its neat to know that we have someone with an experts knowledge on this subject to ask our questions!

This is a fun story I want to share. ELR with centerfires became "a thing" over on SH forum about 15 years ago. A certain company started making lathe turned solids and experimented with many designs of very long super high BC bullets and also the appropriate barrels with different twist rates for those projectiles. The guy who did the testing would often shoot at night (in the calm) somewhere in the neighborhood in excess of a mile away. After much experimenting this Co found a combo that still stayed stable after it transitioned into subsonic. I bought some for my 375CT and man they sailed well waaay out there.

Then a guy from Europe who had access to some sophisticated bullet design program designed a super sleek lathe turned solid which was one wild and (sexy looking, lol) .375 cal projectile and was supposed to have a G1 of 1.5 or some such, and then he promoted it on the forum for sale. A small following of ELR shooters jumped on the bandwagen and ordered the suggested barrels and a bunch of these crazy new projectiles.

6 months went by and we were all excited to see the outcomes. Long story short not one barrel twist combo would work worth a darn. One guy was literally selling these projectiles as novelty items to set on a desk. I bought a few to help out one guy who had bought a thousand of them at around $2 a piece.
Fortunately later on he found other lathe turned solids from other Co's which shot well in his barrel so it wasn't a total loss.

Here it is and a .177 pellet for scale.
View attachment 306846
I know a guy here on AGN that makes slugs which shoot awesome, maybe the best out there, but its funny because it seems that these wouldn't.
No one who has even the slightest idea what they are doing would ever design a bullet even remotely like that. It is so wrong on so many levels.
 
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No one who has even the slightest idea what they are doing would ever design a bullet even remotely like that. It is so wrong on so many levels.

Yeah that guy was probably someone that needed money and had access to a good lathe. He would post fancy articles as to why these were the state of the art to make everything seem legit but all blow and "no go".

Fun to gaze at though :p
 
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This is going to be the most technical of the threads on pellet or slug stability. I am going to try to explain how gyroscopic stability works. It is a relatively simple phenomenon, easy to demonstrate in a 3D environment, but not easy to show on a 2D screen. Some people misunderstand what gyroscopic stability does to their pellets. Gyroscopic stability does not keep a pellet or any other spin stabilized projectile pointing in the same direction as the barrel. Gyroscopic stability turns a projectile to face directly into the airflow. In this way, a projectile can follow the curve of a trajectory.

If there is gross gyroscopic over stability, then the projectile has problems in being able to turn to follow the trajectory and will try to keep pointing in the direction of the barrel. However, the levels of gyroscopic over stability required to reach this state are unlikely to be attained by pellets or any other airgun fired projectile unless it is fired straight up into the air or from the top of Mount Everest. It has also been suggested that gyroscopic over stability is a cause of spiralling. I cannot see how gyroscopic over stability can be a cause of pellet spiralling, particularly as I have encountered over stable projectiles, and they drifted sideways by a long way rather than develop an apparent spiral. The other factor against this theory is that the level of gyroscopic stability required is about a factor of ten higher than seen on pellets, even at long ranges from pellets fired at high speeds.

In order to try to explain how spin stabilization works, I want you to imagine a pellet which is not pointing directly into the airflow, it is at an angle of yaw (fig 1). The angle is shown as being vertically up, but it could be in any direction.

View attachment 305679
Figure 1

The object of any type of stabilization is to try to reduce the angle of yaw. Spin stabilization achieves this through a feedback system. For a pellet at yaw a lateral force is created by the airflow around the body usually centred at a point behind the centre of gravity (CG) called the centre of pressure (CP). The lateral force produces an aerodynamic moment about the CG. It is the aerodynamic moment which is important.

It is a popular misconception that stability is dependent on forces. It is not. Stability is all about moments (torque) about the CG, not forces. Yes, forces are required but only in that they are one component of the moment, the other, in the case of aerodynamic moments, being the distance between the CP and the CG. If you had an infinite force acting through the CG, it would make no contribution to stability, as the moment about the CG would be zero. Similarly, gyroscopes react to moments, not forces, when they change their attitude.

When a spinning projectile is subjected to an aerodynamic moment as in figure 1 the gyroscopic reaction is to cause the projectile to yaw about the CG, not in the same direction as the applied moment as you would expect, but in a direction at ninety degrees as shown in figure 2.

View attachment 305683
Figure 2

In figure 2 you are looking directly at the front of the pellet coming towards you with right hand spin. As a result of the movement of the pellet about the CG, we now have the original vertical yaw angle from figure 1 and a second yaw angle caused by the gyroscopic reaction at ninety degrees to the original angle as seen in figure 3.

View attachment 305685
Figure 3

The pellet now has a sideways yaw angle as well as the original vertical one. As a result of the new yaw angle to the side, the pellet will have a new aerodynamic side force, causing a sideways aerodynamic moment about the pellet CG. This new aerodynamic moment will produce a gyroscopic reaction in a vertical direction as can be seen in figure 4.

View attachment 305689
Figure 4

As can be seen in figure 4 the gyroscopic reaction to the new sideways aerodynamic moment is to reduce the original vertical yaw angle. The reduction in the vertical angle will in turn reduce the sideways yaw angle as the aerodynamic moment is getting less, reducing the gyroscopic reaction. Thus, both yaw angles are reducing (figure 5) and the pellet is getting closer to pointing directly into the airflow as a stable pellet should.

View attachment 305690
Figure 5

All the figures have shown how a spinning pellet reacts. Pellets are usually aerodynamically stable, i.e. the CP lies behind the CG. Slugs and bullets are generally aerodynamically unstable and have a CP in front of the CG. This causes differences, but the fundamental mechanism remains the same. For example, if we are looking at our pellet from the back as it flies away from us, an upwards vertical yaw will cause the pellet to yaw to the left as a result of the gyroscopic reaction. A slug or bullet will yaw to the right, not the left, as a result of being aerodynamically unstable. I will leave an explanation of this to another post, as this one is quite long and complicated enough for now.
This a great post with a lot of understandable information for a layperson such as myself. I do have a question (Hope I did not miss the info), how dose pellet head size related to barrel size affect the amount of yaw? In other words can you reduce the amount of yaw and make your gun more accurate if head size is matched to your barrel?

Tim
 
Tubular projectiles have been around for some time, both in small arms and for tank guns. The biggest problem is too much stability, which is not good for group size or for the vertical error in a crosswind, unless you have a very low twist rate barrel to reduce stability. Good projectile design is all a matter of balance between the aerodynamic and the inertial moments about the CG.
I think this is why the hybrid slugs do so well. They have been engineered and struck that balance between the slugs dimensions, (with their hollow cavity and additional lead weight towards the tip) and the optimal twist rates of our airgun barrels so as to fly with great stability at longer ranges.
 
This a great post with a lot of understandable information for a layperson such as myself. I do have a question (Hope I did not miss the info), how dose pellet head size related to barrel size affect the amount of yaw? In other words can you reduce the amount of yaw and make your gun more accurate if head size is matched to your barrel?

Tim
For a pellet, or any gun projectile, it is not so much the yaw angle it has on leaving the barrel, but the rate at which the pellet yaw is increasing, as it leaves the barrel. The looser the fit, the more the pellet head can vibrate and the higher the rate of yaw increase on leaving the barrel. With a good fitting pellet head, the vibrations should be minimized, and the yaw rates should be reduced as a result. A loose pellet head may also allow the pellet centre of gravity to be slightly off the barrel centreline, which will again produce high yaw rates on leaving the barrel.
 
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