Tuning Heavy spring, lighter hammer vs. lighter spring, heavy hammer

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MrP

MrP

Member
Apr 29, 2020
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New Lebanon, NY, USA
I have some Air Force airgun parts to experiment with and I'm considering different hammer and spring combinations to achieve the best power and efficiency. I'm using bottles that fill to over 4000 psi so i need a little extra force to knock the valve open.


I know I can try both out and look at my shot strings and all of that but is there any rule of thumb for which is preferable? All else being equal is it better to put a little more into the spring and a little less into the hammer, or is it generally preferable to go with a little more in the hammer and a little less in the spring?

This is on an unregulated .177. Condor valve, high pressure tank, 12" barrel. 


thank you airgun gurus
 
I can venture some OPINIONS on the general question, though not specifically on what is described by OP. I have 2 REGULATED Condors, one in .177 caliber and one in .22 caliber. I use a lighter hammer with a heavier spring for one simple reason-faster lock time. Improves accuracy the shooter can produce ("easier to shoot accurately??") IMO but not necessarily better inherent accuracy of the rifle itself. But note, my rifles are REGULATED. For an UNREGULATED AirForce gun, a heavier hammer or a heavier spring (or both) might be necessary just to adequately open the valve at the higher unregulated bottle pressure to produce any specific desired velocity and that COULD HAVE an impact on shooter accuracy.

I shoot at around 1000 fps with both using the pellets that work for me. I've shot slugs in the .177 as well, but that is a different kettle of fish, with advantages and disadvantages to each. Accuracy is excellent IMO ("group size" and "number of shots for each group" guys can chime in and start another issue but I have no interest in going there). My rifles reliably hit what I need them to hit at the distances I shoot and FOR ME that is what matters. 

Not sure this helps OP at all but who knows. Others MAY have different informaiton they will add but the Condor platform doesn't seem to be as popular on this site as are many other guns. 
 
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Much like anything with a human involved, it depends. For firearms, many people define it as the time from trigger pull to primer ignition. Very short and fast (relatively) for firearms (light firing pin, short stroke) in comparison to most air guns (heavier hammer, longer stroke). How much such effects accuracy is debatable.

I prefer a different definition of lock time for MY use-how long between pulling the trigger and bullet (or pellet) exiting the barrel. Obviously this is much longer for a lower velocity air gun compared to a higher velocity firearm, because of both firing pin/hammer differences and velocity down the barrel.

The longer the time between pulling the trigger and the projectile (bullet or pellet) exiting the barrel, the higher the possibility of shooter error (shooter moving the gun in some fashion) affecting any given shot. Considering that possibility, "faster lock time" (whichever way one wants to "define" it) should mean "easier to shoot accurately".
 
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I am not familiar with your gun, but in general a lighter hammer with enough spring for the desired tune. There is a balance involved here including the valve closing spring. The reason for the lighter hammer is for dwell timing of the valve's closing speed. A lighter hammer can get off of the valve quicker or out of the way of the valve closing quicker so it can close back at the fastest speed. A heavier hammer is slower to do so.

Ideally you want a gap between the hammer face and the valve pin when uncocked instead of a bunch of hammer spring preload against the hammer pressing on the valve when uncocked. This does require more spring for a given velocity, but the pay off is more shots per fill and less wasted air per shot. A preloaded hammer wastes air as it typically will reopen the valve a second time upon firing.
 
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I am not familiar with your gun, but in general a lighter hammer with enough spring for the desired tune. There is a balance involved here including the valve closing spring. The reason for the lighter hammer is for dwell timing of the valve's closing speed. A lighter hammer can get off of the valve quicker or out of the way of the valve closing quicker so it can close back at the fastest speed. A heavier hammer is slower to do so.

Ideally you want a gap between the hammer face and the valve pin when uncocked instead of a bunch of hammer spring preload against the hammer pressing on the valve when uncocked. This does require more spring for a given velocity, but the pay off is more shots per fill and less wasted air per shot. A preloaded hammer wastes air as it typically will reopen the valve a second time upon firing.
Click to expand...

You are talking about beach balls and I was talking about apples. Yes, one can have an effect on the other. But limiting the view to JUST the valve function is YOUR choice. Mine works fine the way it is. IF I were WANTING more shots per fill or having a problem with tank dump, then it might be a different conversation. Lock time isn't related to what you brought up.
 
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"The reason for the lighter hammer is for dwell timing of the valve's closing speed. A lighter hammer can get off of the valve quicker or out of the way of the valve closing quicker so it can close back at the fastest speed. A heavier hammer is slower to do so." This makes perfect sense. I think this is the way to go in particular gun I have in mind. 
 
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I'm far from being a Condor expert, and mine are REGULATED as noted, so a different animal as to tuning. One thing I would note. 3000psi stock tank Condors often seem to "need" a heavy hammer to open the valve (seems thats why there are lots of heavy hammers for sale, along with stronger hammer springs). MrP mentioned 4000psi "bottles". It seems (possibly incorrect but seems) that a lighter hammer would need a relatively VERY heavy and LONG spring to have enough force to open the valve with 4000psi, creating exactly the "dwell timing" issue noted above. I could be totally off base on this. Hope you get it worked out.
 
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Yes, the bottles are 4500 psi but i fill to 4000. I am indeed using a very heavy spring. With the heavy hammer that I was using before it was too much - I could not slow it down much with the power wherl except at the very highest fill pressure (where there is some valve lock). All my pellets were supersonic, it was just knocking it all the way open with ease.



I found the stock spring to be incapable of generating much power from the tank when close to 4000 psi even with a heavy hammer.
 
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If you read enough on the Condor platform and past experiences with them, a relatively common thread that I saw repeated quite often when I got into the platform was failure of the valve stem from trying to shoot from extremely high fill pressures using the heavy spring/heavy hammer necessary to open the valve. And that was apparently at 3000psi, not 4000psi. I could be completely wrong on my view here, but the difficulties in getting a good "curve" to the shot string while not damaging anything will only be exacerbated by using 4000psi UNREGULATED. And I'm not aware of any regulators available that can handle 4000psi input pressure. One commonly suggested approach from people with much more experience than I have with an UNREGULATED Condor is to fill to around 2800psi and shoot down to a lower pressure until the curve drops off. That has been reported to produce a good shot string at high velocity with "accuracy" without damaging anything. As with many things, all relative. I wish you luck in your experimentations.
 
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