Helium anyone using??

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beerthief said:
I agree , i was just answering the OP question as i read it . The OP was after stability in varying temp's which Argon would do .
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It will, but not moreso than any other dry gas really. And even then, practical testing has shown this whole conversation to be pretty inconsequential unless you're really worried about VERY small changes.

Nitrogen Truths and Myths

Lately there seems to be more and more hype about nitrogen gas for tires offered by tire companies and nitrogen services. Some services will "purge" your tires of air and replace it with near pure nitrogen for $20 per tire. Some tire shops are charging as much as $5 -10 per tire to fill them...
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For me Helium would be used only for hunting.. I have a digital scope so having 2 zero's at 50 yards is no big deal. I'm at 800 fps.and would like to be in the 1000 fps range. A 4500 psi upgrade and booster pump is about $1500.00... My local welding supply filling station will trade me a metal oxygen tank for a helium metal tank no deposit. Its low pressure so I have too use the compressor to get up to 300 bar in scba tank. I'll use air 98% time just for hunting season.. So.thankful to all the bright minds and wealth of knowledge on the forums.
 
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Gotta say that argon has a higher density that air or nitrogen and would shoot slower the air or nitrogen how do I know tried it.
Nitrogen does shoot slightly faster than air but thats not why you use it, NO OXIDIZERS NO WATER and less temp sensitive than air.
It's probably cheaper than all the junk people use to try and dri their air and they still have oxidizers in the gun.
 
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Its chief advantage is often misunderstood as relating to the speed of sound. However the reason it is advantageous is really simple: the mass of the molecules of helium are much lighter than those of air. When you fire a PCP, energy is used to move the air and the projectile. If you use a lighter gas, more energy is available for the projectile, resulting in greater fps/fpe. There are other minor effects, but that’s the main one.

However, as others have mentioned, it’s a precious resource that has important uses.
 
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Came across this April 2023 post on use of Helium and want to add some perspective. I've been looking for a commercial source of Helium cylinders lately and there appears to be a general restriction on the sale of commercial amounts. The commonly marketed low pressure disposable tanks of Helium marked for Ballon use used to be almost 100% Helium back in the day. Last specs I saw those tanks were diluted with 20% and many customer complaints about partially empty tanks on arrival.

Maybe 20-25 years ago I posted numerous Air vs Helium power tests on old Yellow forum for my 25 cal Career 707 carbine (avg increase 62fpe in air to ~105fpe Helium depending on pellet). Also tested my 22 cal Falcon FN8 pistol, went from maybe 12fpe air to ~22fpe on Helium. Essentially, Helium increased max power over air by 50% to 65% depending on pellet tested.

Initially I just put my hand pump into a large garbage bag, sealed it shut, and then ran a little air hose from the disposable Helium balloon tank into the bag. Helium is surprisingly easy to pump up compared to air and the pump stays cool due to less friction. When I finally got an Axor 3500psi compressor I located the gas inlet and ran Helium into it. My airguns had Helium in them for at least 3 years without any problems, and that was back in the day when seal material wasn't as good as it is now. And it's physically easier on a hand pump or compressor than air is due to its much lower viscosity than air. Considering that commercial uses leak vast amount of Helium into the air every year, the amount used in airguns is simply invisible.

Whether or not to use Helium to get some +60% high power shots these days isn't as much of a big deal as it used to be when PCPs were unregulated and generating 50fpe max on a good day. Now we have a variety of compact airguns in the 100+ fpe category. Even the new regulated Huben GK1 pistols can be easily adjusted 5fpe to 35fpe and we have adjustable power semiautos in the 200fpe/300fpe keep on going up + range.

The people who seem to be most hesitant to discuss Helium use in airguns on the forums were always those, as in England, who have a max of 12fpe restriction on their airguns. Here in the US the search for compact air power continues as always. My first air pistol was a CO2 Crosman 600 shooting at maybe 2fpe on a warm day. And 45 years later was able to get a relatively compact 357 Evanix Rex pistol which hit 150+fpe. Things are developing very quickly in the airgun power realm these days.

JP
 
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Miami Airgunner said:
The entire idea is that airgun velocity is limited by the speed of sound in the gas propellant - and the limit of helium is much higher, but it's also a less dense gas, so my thinking is that you may need more of it overall.

Realistically, the modern PCP with a subsonic bullet is good for anything up to a damn moose, so, you outta be fine no matter what you're hunting, unless it really is a moose or polar/grizzly bear. Hell, you MIGHT be able to do those, but I'd suggest a 45/70 carbine as a backup just in case, to avoid getting youself recycled into the next generation of wildflowers and berries.
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I dont know where this idea came from. The speed of sound has nothing to do with air velocity. In fact, there's an online calculator that shows the speed of air at 3000psi down a .5" tube, instantly released travels at 18,000fps.
 
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It's been a while, but I was close. Air release speeds don't relate to deflagration.

Resized_Screenshot_20230221-202250_Chrome.jpeg
 
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jpiperson2002 said:
Came across this April 2023 post on use of Helium and want to add some perspective. I've been looking for a commercial source of Helium cylinders lately and there appears to be a general restriction on the sale of commercial amounts. The commonly marketed low pressure disposable tanks of Helium marked for Ballon use used to be almost 100% Helium back in the day. Last specs I saw those tanks were diluted with 20% and many customer complaints about partially empty tanks on arrival.

Maybe 20-25 years ago I posted numerous Air vs Helium power tests on old Yellow forum for my 25 cal Career 707 carbine (avg increase 62fpe in air to ~105fpe Helium depending on pellet). Also tested my 22 cal Falcon FN8 pistol, went from maybe 12fpe air to ~22fpe on Helium. Essentially, Helium increased max power over air by 50% to 65% depending on pellet tested.

Initially I just put my hand pump into a large garbage bag, sealed it shut, and then ran a little air hose from the disposable Helium balloon tank into the bag. Helium is surprisingly easy to pump up compared to air and the pump stays cool due to less friction. When I finally got an Axor 3500psi compressor I located the gas inlet and ran Helium into it. My airguns had Helium in them for at least 3 years without any problems, and that was back in the day when seal material wasn't as good as it is now. And it's physically easier on a hand pump or compressor than air is due to its much lower viscosity than air. Considering that commercial uses leak vast amount of Helium into the air every year, the amount used in airguns is simply invisible.

Whether or not to use Helium to get some +60% high power shots these days isn't as much of a big deal as it used to be when PCPs were unregulated and generating 50fpe max on a good day. Now we have a variety of compact airguns in the 100+ fpe category. Even the new regulated Huben GK1 pistols can be easily adjusted 5fpe to 35fpe and we have adjustable power semiautos in the 200fpe/300fpe keep on going up + range.

The people who seem to be most hesitant to discuss Helium use in airguns on the forums were always those, as in England, who have a max of 12fpe restriction on their airguns. Here in the US the search for compact air power continues as always. My first air pistol was a CO2 Crosman 600 shooting at maybe 2fpe on a warm day. And 45 years later was able to get a relatively compact 357 Evanix Rex pistol which hit 150+fpe. Things are developing very quickly in the airgun power realm these days.

JP
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That brought back good memories. I was testing out ammo for Tom "The Pelletman" back then (had not yet discovered tiny-bore) and indeed tried the pump in a bag also before figuring out how to connect a "party tank" to the pump. Nice to see you posting.

John
 
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spysir said:
That brought back good memories. I was testing out ammo for Tom "The Pelletman" back then (had not yet discovered tiny-bore) and indeed tried the pump in a bag also before figuring out how to connect a "party tank" to the pump. Nice to see you posting.

John
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I just came across this old picture of some Pelletman 25 cal pellets which I shot through my Career 707 carbine at different velocities back in 2004. These were shot into duct seal so they gave the beautiful uniform expansion. Unfortunately I didn't record the power levels tested, probably 15/30/45/60fpe. If I recall correctly he was still testing his pellet molds and lead mix and different pellet weights back then and he sent me some pellets to try and I sent him back the picture.

***MODERATED CONTENT REMOVED ***

I predict that someday a company will finally get around to putting a regular wind-it-up hand crank as used on crossbows, on break barrel rifles, and we may finally see a 357 100fpe wind-up break barrel. Too heavy and unnecessary and impractical but they'd sell plenty of them. And half of those would end up in the airgun Classifieds within the year like my old airguns often do.

JP

Pelletman 25cal HPs into duct seal.jpg
 
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TheBeardedGunsmith said:
I dont know where this idea came from. The speed of sound has nothing to do with air velocity. In fact, there's an online calculator that shows the speed of air at 3000psi down a .5" tube, instantly released travels at 18,000fps.
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I don't know where it came from either. Now that's a darn good question.

Also, it'd be fantastic to test it out and see. :) myth busters we need you!
 
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TheBeardedGunsmith said:
It's been a while, but I was close. Air release speeds don't relate to deflagration.

View attachment 396288
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That calculator was likely written to model systems that were well below choked (sonic) flow velocity. Since it does not take into account those limitations, the results fall apart at anything close to what we see in an airgun. That calculator is probably only taking friction losses into account. By entering very large pipe diameters, with a very short length, I was able to get that calculator to display air flow velocities that exceeded the speed of light. Most of us would agree that is not possible.

Mass flow rate becomes choked at the speed of sound. Though peak velocity can be higher than that since the air can also be expanding as it is flowing. The maximum velocity front ends up being about 2x the speed of sound of the propelling air.

Mach velocity in helium is much higher than air, so it would have a higher velocity limit. But it’s main advantage in an airgun is it’s much lower mass. In higher power airguns, the mass of the propelling air can exceed that of the projectile, even at speeds as low as 950fps.
 
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Miami Airgunner said:
I don't know where it came from either. Now that's a darn good question.

Also, it'd be fantastic to test it out and see. :) myth busters we need you!
Click to expand...
I think it was simple observation that the speed of sound is just over 1100 fps, which also happens to be close to the maximum velocity that it is practical to drive a pellet at. Obviously we can push a pellet to supersonic speeds though, so it would appear to be mostly coincidence.
 
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Sawney Bean said:
I think it was simple observation that the speed of sound is just over 1100 fps, which also happens to be close to the maximum velocity that it is practical to drive a pellet at. Obviously we can push a pellet to supersonic speeds though, so it would appear to be mostly coincidence.
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Based on the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution the max is shy of 2500~ fps, I believe some members at the GTA forums have done around 2,200~.

-Matt
 
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