How does crosman make their barrels?
- Thread starter Pale_Rider
- Start date
I am not sure what method they us,e but I was teamed up (at their FT shoot) with the guy that revamped their barrel making. He told me that the Crosman barrels are out shooting the LW barrels now. He used to work at NASA and is a very nice young man. Him and his boy are pretty good shots too. He also told me that the CP .22 cal. 19gr pellets are the best pellet that Crosman is making now. I bought a couple cans and wish I had bought a lot more. They are very accurate out of a couple of my .22 guns.
Bob in WV
Bob in WV
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...... ive bee wondering about those new heavy .22 domes.... and i remember there was talk at the shot show in the spring of crosman making all of their own barrels (like the np2 rifle barrels) . but if they rival l.walther , i'd need to see and shoot that for myself. maybe you could research the new news from crosman back during the 2019 shot show. - paul.
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Crosmans barrel engineer, Nick Hargarther, and I had a very lengthy conversation on barrels, twist rates, size and all that stuff. The barrels right now for a most part are still button rifled, but methods might change and improve in the future. They do have some tricks up their sleeves down the road, that has to be seen.
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
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My understanding is they have been using their new design and manufacturing process for 1.5 - 2 years now. Seems like that would be plenty of time for word to spread that their barrels are superior to LW. That would be a magnificent thing given Crosman’s modest prices for spare parts. So we have to ask ourselves, is it one of the best-kept secrets in the airgunning world or just marketing hyperbole?
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Suffice to say prejudiced perspective(s), predetermined 'testing', and marketing hype can not only cloud the truth, but invariably DOES... especially in combination (of all three). That said and as much faith as I have in Crosman, to think or hope they might produce barrels that outshoot LWs is wishful thinking (at best).
That said, I've often made very bold statements about the button-rifled barrels used on Crosman's vintage guns of the 1940s through the 1970s based on my personal experiences. A few examples stand out.
In it's best effort of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards, my Sears & Roebuck variant of a 1960s-vintage Crosman 180 .22 Co2 rifle averaged .54" center-to-center groups with 14.3 grain JSBs at only 650 FPS and 12.5 foot-pounds. For perspective, that equals the best accuracy I've achieved with such impressive PCP rifles as my current RAW TM1000 field-target rig, an HW100 with two AAFTA Grand Prix titles to its credit, a .20 caliber Beeman/Theoben Rapid 7, and (multiple) FX Tarantulas. Only one Tarantula consistently produced better group size averages (actually .43-.44"). FWIW, the scope used on that Sears 180 to achieve such impressive 50 yard groups was just a 2-7X.
Made from an even earlier 1950's vintage Crosman 180, in a session of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my first rifle-to-pistol conversion averaged .74" c-t-c with 14.3 JSBs at only 530 FPS and 9 foot-pounds. BTW, that was done with a 7/8" tube, 4X scope!
And lastly, on two separate sessions of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my 1960s-vintage Crosman 187 rifle-to-pistol conversion field-target pistol achieved group-size averages of .66" and .67". For perspective on that, only an Allen Zasadny modified Steyr LP-1 pistol bettered that accuracy (twice, by only 1/10") by averaging .56" c-t-c groups at 50 yards. The best single group achieved with both the AZ Steyr and the Crosman 187 measured .34" c-t-c, meaning all shots in those groups would have hit a thumb-tack and the groups could easily be covered by a dime (see photo below).
The pertinent points (to this thread) I'm getting at are, 1)- The groups presented and pictured here were shot with STOCK Crosman barrels; in the case of the pistols, those barrels chopped and re-crowned by a shade-tree gunsmith, 2) Obviously Crosman has been producing barrels accurate enough to rival todays best airgun barrels for over a half-century, 3) It would be quite a remarkable achievement for them to improve on that now, 4) At least in an economically-feasible barrel for their current airgun models, and 5) Wouldn't it be cool if they DID?
That said, I've often made very bold statements about the button-rifled barrels used on Crosman's vintage guns of the 1940s through the 1970s based on my personal experiences. A few examples stand out.
In it's best effort of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards, my Sears & Roebuck variant of a 1960s-vintage Crosman 180 .22 Co2 rifle averaged .54" center-to-center groups with 14.3 grain JSBs at only 650 FPS and 12.5 foot-pounds. For perspective, that equals the best accuracy I've achieved with such impressive PCP rifles as my current RAW TM1000 field-target rig, an HW100 with two AAFTA Grand Prix titles to its credit, a .20 caliber Beeman/Theoben Rapid 7, and (multiple) FX Tarantulas. Only one Tarantula consistently produced better group size averages (actually .43-.44"). FWIW, the scope used on that Sears 180 to achieve such impressive 50 yard groups was just a 2-7X.
Made from an even earlier 1950's vintage Crosman 180, in a session of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my first rifle-to-pistol conversion averaged .74" c-t-c with 14.3 JSBs at only 530 FPS and 9 foot-pounds. BTW, that was done with a 7/8" tube, 4X scope!
And lastly, on two separate sessions of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my 1960s-vintage Crosman 187 rifle-to-pistol conversion field-target pistol achieved group-size averages of .66" and .67". For perspective on that, only an Allen Zasadny modified Steyr LP-1 pistol bettered that accuracy (twice, by only 1/10") by averaging .56" c-t-c groups at 50 yards. The best single group achieved with both the AZ Steyr and the Crosman 187 measured .34" c-t-c, meaning all shots in those groups would have hit a thumb-tack and the groups could easily be covered by a dime (see photo below).
The pertinent points (to this thread) I'm getting at are, 1)- The groups presented and pictured here were shot with STOCK Crosman barrels; in the case of the pistols, those barrels chopped and re-crowned by a shade-tree gunsmith, 2) Obviously Crosman has been producing barrels accurate enough to rival todays best airgun barrels for over a half-century, 3) It would be quite a remarkable achievement for them to improve on that now, 4) At least in an economically-feasible barrel for their current airgun models, and 5) Wouldn't it be cool if they DID?
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I’ll beleive that they’re outshooting barrels when they can show a video of a thorough comparison with an LW barrel
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....air rifle barrels from lothar walther are choked - chocked pretty well, too....like a .25 green mtn barrel for mrod , choked about 2" at the muzzle .... crosman / benjamin barrels dont seem to be choked to me. i have dreamed of some machine or press that would - in a precise way - press the end of the muzzle while rolling 7/16" crosman barrels.. . - paul.
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Suffice to say prejudiced perspective(s), predetermined 'testing', and marketing hype can not only cloud the truth, but invariably DOES... especially in combination (of all three). That said and as much faith as I have in Crosman, to think or hope they might produce barrels that outshoot LWs is wishful thinking (at best).
That said, I've often made very bold statements about the button-rifled barrels used on Crosman's vintage guns of the 1940s through the 1970s based on my personal experiences. A few examples stand out.
In it's best effort of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards, my Sears & Roebuck variant of a 1960s-vintage Crosman 180 .22 Co2 rifle averaged .54" center-to-center groups with 14.3 grain JSBs at only 650 FPS and 12.5 foot-pounds. For perspective, that equals the best accuracy I've achieved with such impressive PCP rifles as my current RAW TM1000 field-target rig, an HW100 with two AAFTA Grand Prix titles to its credit, a .20 caliber Beeman/Theoben Rapid 7, and (multiple) FX Tarantulas. Only one Tarantula consistently produced better group size averages (actually .43-.44"). FWIW, the scope used on that Sears 180 to achieve such impressive 50 yard groups was just a 2-7X.
Made from an even earlier 1950's vintage Crosman 180, in a session of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my first rifle-to-pistol conversion averaged .74" c-t-c with 14.3 JSBs at only 530 FPS and 9 foot-pounds. BTW, that was done with a 7/8" tube, 4X scope!
And lastly, on two separate sessions of five consecutive five-shot groups at 50 yards my 1960s-vintage Crosman 187 rifle-to-pistol conversion field-target pistol achieved group-size averages of .66" and .67". For perspective on that, only an Allen Zasadny modified Steyr LP-1 pistol bettered that accuracy (twice, by only 1/10") by averaging .56" c-t-c groups at 50 yards. The best single group achieved with both the AZ Steyr and the Crosman 187 measured .34" c-t-c, meaning all shots in those groups would have hit a thumb-tack and the groups could easily be covered by a dime (see photo below).
The pertinent points (to this thread) I'm getting at are, 1)- The groups presented and pictured here were shot with STOCK Crosman barrels; in the case of the pistols, those barrels chopped and re-crowned by a shade-tree gunsmith, 2) Obviously Crosman has been producing barrels accurate enough to rival todays best airgun barrels for over a half-century, 3) It would be quite a remarkable achievement for them to improve on that now, 4) At least in an economically-feasible barrel for their current airgun models, and 5) Wouldn't it be cool if they DID?
Gasman,
thank you for the info and accuracy data. Very impressive what those certain crosman barrels can do, especially when you have them recrowned by a “shade tree” gunsmith. It would be amazing if crosman could make a barrel as good or better than LW for their current airguns
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One of a kind pistols you got there, better accuracy than some expensive rifles. Now you got me thinking about making one
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I would imagine the crosman barrels are choked just because most people who buy their airguns shoot pellets more than slugs. And from a sales standpoint you want to appeal to the majority of shooters. Unless I am wrong in assuming that choked barrels shoot pellets better than unchoked?
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Legionair,
The upcoming tricks for barrel manufacturing improvements were not disclosed, nor hinted on to me. The current barrels are definitely choked, I just acquired 3 of them, and ran cleaning rods through them, they are definitely choked.
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
The upcoming tricks for barrel manufacturing improvements were not disclosed, nor hinted on to me. The current barrels are definitely choked, I just acquired 3 of them, and ran cleaning rods through them, they are definitely choked.
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
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...hey , xbow , are we talking about the 7/16" o.d. barrels that are choked ? - barrels that fit the 22xx/disco/13xx guns ? or barrels for what gun ? ......and legionair - choking these airgun barrels reduces velocity a bit (but far more accurate) . many airgun barrels are not choked. one can push a pellet thru the barrel and find if that barrel is choked or crimped (.25 trl xl barrels) or if the pellet pushes thru with little resistance ... - paul.
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"Unless I am wrong in assuming that choked barrels shoot pellets better than unchoked?"
Those chopped and re-crowned pistol barrels above are definitely not choked.
"i have dreamed of some machine or press that would – in a precise way – press the end of the muzzle while rolling 7/16" crosman barrels."
If I'm remembering correctly, I think Pomona Airguns re-chokes barrels. Also think I've heard of someone else that can, but don't recall who.
Those chopped and re-crowned pistol barrels above are definitely not choked.
"i have dreamed of some machine or press that would – in a precise way – press the end of the muzzle while rolling 7/16" crosman barrels."
If I'm remembering correctly, I think Pomona Airguns re-chokes barrels. Also think I've heard of someone else that can, but don't recall who.
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Seems like a common misconception that choked barrels shoot better than unchoked . In my testing, good barrels are good barrels. I'm not sure if it's true that they are more forgiving of pellet quality, but that has also been disseminated. I've just not cared to try to prove or disprove it.
I've purchased 18 LW barrels in 177 in the last year and a half that were a mix of choked and unchoked for personal use. All that I've used so far were pretty good but the best, most forgiving of pellet choice , were the unchoked. I've prepped 3 of those now that are competitive with just about anything. One is in use on my Tsar and another on a friend's Tsar and though I've not fared really well with it yet, they both shoot phenomenal.
Like AirnGasMan, I have a god selection of older Crosmans and they shoot pretty well with current pellets and are not choked. Consider that I bought a spare fitted and finished and blued barrel for my 1400 for $9 before Crosman quit supporting older models..... and they shoot pretty well. Btw, that was the going price... not a sale or closeout .
Anyway .. just my $.02.
Bob
I've purchased 18 LW barrels in 177 in the last year and a half that were a mix of choked and unchoked for personal use. All that I've used so far were pretty good but the best, most forgiving of pellet choice , were the unchoked. I've prepped 3 of those now that are competitive with just about anything. One is in use on my Tsar and another on a friend's Tsar and though I've not fared really well with it yet, they both shoot phenomenal.
Like AirnGasMan, I have a god selection of older Crosmans and they shoot pretty well with current pellets and are not choked. Consider that I bought a spare fitted and finished and blued barrel for my 1400 for $9 before Crosman quit supporting older models..... and they shoot pretty well. Btw, that was the going price... not a sale or closeout .
Anyway .. just my $.02.
Bob
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If the pellet fits the barrel correctly then a choke is worthless. The choked barrels from my understanding started to help deal with less than consistent pellet sizes. I have a BSA S10 that I cut down from 18" to 10". That barrel didnt have a choke when it was 18" but still shot extremely accurate and after cutting it to 10" and removing any chance of a tighter spot at the muzzle its still extremely accurate.
I would like to know what tricks crosman has come up with. Barrel making has been around a long time and I dont think crosman has learned anything to do that world record setting barrel manufacturers dont already know and use. With that said I hope crosman does make competitive barrels but I doubt the "new tricks".
I would like to know what tricks crosman has come up with. Barrel making has been around a long time and I dont think crosman has learned anything to do that world record setting barrel manufacturers dont already know and use. With that said I hope crosman does make competitive barrels but I doubt the "new tricks".
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Rane,
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that a choke was necessary for shooting pellets
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