If your reticle is aligned with the bore and it looks crooked when you mount the rifle you are canting the rifle. The stock does not fit you or your form is bad.
That's all there is to it.
That's all there is to it.
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How important is perfect level your scope to your gun?
- Thread starter ImpactX
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Field shooting .. NON competition would not worry about it as environmental and hold conditions etc you'll not benefit from it's use much.
COMPETITION such as Field target ... ABSOLUTELY and if in doubt you have it set up correctly .... When 10 yards and 55 yard shots don't fall on the same vertical plane ? you likely have scope cant present.
I use BKL levels because the "Level" can be mounted on the tube clamp frame in a multitude of positions. Once vertical crosshair is positioned to pass theoretically threw the bores centerline, then you look at a PLUMB line and square up the level on scope tube to be plumb with it. Test 10Y and then at distance making sure bubble is reading level for each shot. If you see variance in the near far and wind is not in play ... your not there yet
COMPETITION such as Field target ... ABSOLUTELY and if in doubt you have it set up correctly .... When 10 yards and 55 yard shots don't fall on the same vertical plane ? you likely have scope cant present.
I use BKL levels because the "Level" can be mounted on the tube clamp frame in a multitude of positions. Once vertical crosshair is positioned to pass theoretically threw the bores centerline, then you look at a PLUMB line and square up the level on scope tube to be plumb with it. Test 10Y and then at distance making sure bubble is reading level for each shot. If you see variance in the near far and wind is not in play ... your not there yet
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Oh, I forgot to mention this. Those cheaper levels I've bought over the years don't correspond to each other and some were quite different. That was part of the reason I quit using them.
Also if mounted closer to the eye I had trouble seeing them without glasses on. I use glasses anyway nowadays. But if I were to use a level now I'd spend the extra money to get a good one that was easily visible and hopefully "true" as well. I'm spending my money on other things though.
Also if mounted closer to the eye I had trouble seeing them without glasses on. I use glasses anyway nowadays. But if I were to use a level now I'd spend the extra money to get a good one that was easily visible and hopefully "true" as well. I'm spending my money on other things though.
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I agree with the above. Some cant to the rifle often makes it more comfortable. If a guy sets up their scope to account for their cant, all is well and shots go where they should. What's really wild is when you shoot a gun with built in cant (original USFT).
This one I don't agree with as much. Airguns are by and large mass-produced. Mostly a "one size fits all" mentality. Outside of basic adjustments, any particular airgun is going to fit differently for everyone. We've all got slight anatomical difference: long neck/short neck, wide shoulders/narrow shoulders, length of pull, hand size, wide set eyes/narrow set eyes, and on and on and on. So, adjust it to the best fit possible (when design allows) and otherwise make do.
Bad form doesn't exist. If you hold it the same every time, no matter how different that looks than "normal" and practice that enough, you will get repeatable accuracy/precision results.
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A tall target test shooting off the extre.e upper and
We will just have to agree to disagree on a lot of that. But I do respect your opinion.
We will just have to agree to disagree on a lot of that. But I do respect your opinion.
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A picture is worth a thousand words ...
This is @Motorhead, using the "dead man" position for field target.
For certain classes of field target, this position is utilized by many of the top contenders. Sure doesn't look like anything resembling rifle shooting "form" as anyone outside of field target would define it. But they practice it and use it to good effect during matches.
To bring it back on topic, if my ear was on my knee during shooting, and my optical sense of up and down was all out of whack because of that crooked neck, I could maybe see the benefit of utilizing a bubble level.
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most of us aren't right, that's why we spend so much money on bb guns lolMy eyes are pretty straight but my head isn't screwed on right.
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I'm trying not to be snarky here but it's obvious that you haven't seen smith's mount scopes?
The crosshairs are a function of proper internal alignment, if the crosshairs are misaligned, you will never zero the scope.
The scopes are and have been indexed off the top turret since scopes were first mass produced.
It's this indexing that we want to match up with the rest of the gun via a reliable system, which in the case of gun/airsmithing is locating the horizontal plane of the mount and level that and each item on top of it.
The top turret is the index point and even if the reticle is off, the gun will fire true if a level is placed in relation with the receiver's horizontal plane.
This is why I giggled, old snorts thinking that the crosshairs/reticle are the reference point.
They SHOULD be but as many of us have witnessed, they do sometimes get jogged or twisted and they are no longer true.
Plumb bobs exacerbate the error and cause even more deviation.
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No, that is incorrect.
The only true alignment is the bore and the scope indexing plane.
Reticles must be inline with the indexing locations first.
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You completely misinterpreted my use of the word "form".
If your gun is canted or your crosshair isn't plumb you have a problem with "form". I'm not saying there is a certain way to do it. I'm saying that canting the rifle is not the way to do it.
You can't mount a scope out of plumb with the bore nor hold the rifle at an angle without introducing error. It may not matter much in most cases. And if you know where the gun is shooting it dosent matter at all. But any alignment problems introduce windage error and to a lesser degree elevation.
You fine tune a precision rifle with a "tall target" for this very reason. It allows you to determine the exact error even if you can't see it in a mirror. You basically shoot off the crosshair, off the bottom dot and off the top dot at a tall target with a plumb line on it. If your scope is off plumb at all the patterns will be on either side of the line. It's the basic sight in procedure for all long range precision rifles. I'm assuming many airgunners do it too.
You can hold the gun however you want. But if the vertical crosshair is not plumb you will have some windage error. If your rifle is not comfortable with the crosshair plumb you have an ergonomics problem. If you can't hold the crosshair plumb through a shot your form is bad. Whatever you define as "form" demands the crosshair be plumb. Otherwise you introduce error.
Motorhead knows this. Ask him.
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Just to support the use of a level ( Especially in FT ) is that a single pellets diameter of cant induced drift could be the difference between a target falling and a Split on the edge.
While this for a sport / recreational shooter might seem a bit neurotic The effect of cant drifting a pellet off the vertical plane of sighting is very real and something one should take seriously if actually wishing to cover one more base in being more astute on the field of FT play
While this for a sport / recreational shooter might seem a bit neurotic
The effect of cant drifting a pellet off the vertical plane of sighting is very real and something one should take seriously if actually wishing to cover one more base in being more astute on the field of FT play Upvote 0
A rifle barrel is round it can be mounted to the action in any of the 360degree and the bullet will still fly straight its the reticle that needs plum/level so the bullet will travel in a vertical flight. Just seems lodgical to me. Some professional shooters cant their rifles...not the reticle.
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When I worked for a gun shop in the twin cities, my boss showed me his favorite scope, it sat on a high shelf.
Bushnel 4x9, probably more sold than any other scope world wide and the reticle ring wasn't glued into the tube.
He'd laugh every time he'd show someone how the ring would spin if the scope was turned.
Then he would tap you on the chest and say, "Don't ever trust the reticle, only the top turret is true, nothing else can be trusted. "
Bushnel 4x9, probably more sold than any other scope world wide and the reticle ring wasn't glued into the tube.
He'd laugh every time he'd show someone how the ring would spin if the scope was turned.
Then he would tap you on the chest and say, "Don't ever trust the reticle, only the top turret is true, nothing else can be trusted. "
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Okay.
Not sure what's being argued here. If not having a level was negatively affecting my shooting, in comps or otherwise, I'd chase it down. I've done enough experimenting with bubbles, and had enough success sans bubble that I'm good with where I'm at. If folks want to put their time and efforts towards the bubble, go for it.
Mean while, I'll be putting my efforts towards practicing and determining where my pellets go at various distances and in various winds.
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I see what you are getting at. I still don't understand how you arrive at it. How do you level the "scope indexing plane"?
I'd try it your way when I mount my next scope. I'm just not clear on exactly what your doing.
However you do it there is always a certain amount of error. Then you shoot it. If it walks across the target at range you fix it. Or live with it. We've all done both.
I just don't see a small amount of windage error at range as a big thing. You are always dealing with wind. That varies your windage more than a little cant does. You just deal with it.
I've never had an alignment problem using a torpedo level and a door jamb. At least not one that I noticed. Or a plumb line over the bore. If I was competing I'd probably shoot a tall target to fine tune it. However you do it if it shoots down the middle it's groovy.
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Yupper, I could care less about using a fixed "bubble" on your gun or not but unless your scope is indexed to the bore (by whatever means you choose), the crosshair alignment is irrelevant.
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so, in that logic the top turret cap is in perfect alignment to the scope, rings and mounting base even if the reticle is off?
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Back to machining: receivers etc are milled with the top being indicated. They are milled flat in relation to the bore center.
Even shotguns for 100 years or more are referenced from the sides to a flat, 90° top. This is seen in old guns as the bead and post.
Since we know the milled and referenced tip is square and 90° to the bore and true, we just need to true the ring bottoms and scope indexing point which is always the top turret.
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Cap? No.
This is of course only possible if the reference points are true as stated by others.
I'm only giving you all the readers digest version, truing the reticle to the indexing location is another operation preceeding the mounting.
We had a fixture for that.
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