How much Foot Pounds Of Energy (FPE) do you need video?

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

The bigger FPE is more geared towards the Heart/Lung shot where you might need to break ribs or other bones and travel way further in to create the damage necessary,
Same results or actually better can be achieved with what others mentioned before.....accuracy, accuracy, accuracy and yes you do not need the FPE that manufacturers ( mainly firearms ) are leading you to believe you need, the precise brain shot is unbeatable in efficancy.

It's all about to be a hunter, study your game, get close, pass on the shots that aren't 100% right

This video is of a decent boar daken with a .22 @ 20 FPE

This one is of an other decent boar taken with a .177 at 17 FPE

As you can see a 800 FPE .45 would not have given any different results


This is a video showing that I was willing to let this Big Boar go since I did not have a shot for 10 minutes,...but, as you can see as soon as the perfect shot was presented it took only seconds to let the pellet fly

 

[JimD]

I think 1 fpe per pound of animal is much too low for routine clean kills. I hit a squirrel in the shoulder with a 177 at about 5 fpe and it took several days for it to die. The problem was the pellet did not make it through the shoulder into the vitals. If I had missed the big bones of the shoulder it would have probably worked but I retired that gun from squirrel shooting. (I found the squirrel dead in the yard several days after I shot it) I also lost a couple with my Prod when it was tuned to less than 15 fpe. My placement might have been bad, I can't say for certain but I thought it was a good lung/heart shot in both cases. I turned it up to about 18 fpe at the muzzle and the next 11 were nice clean kills. All shots were within 30 yards.

I also tested penetration with my Prod on a dead squirrel at 25 yards. At the original tune, only really heavy pellets would shoot through from side to side even when no heavy bone was hit. With the power turned up a little, most shots would shoot through. I'm sorry but I just don't believe you can get pass through routinely on squirrels with less than about 15 fpe at impact. I've shot them, and I've tested penetration on a couple dead ones and it just doesn't work that way. I'm shooting simple domed pellets because they are the most accurate in my guns. I've also tested penetration in wet paper and a little bit in ballistic gel and I think simple domed pellets penetrate best. I cannot see going to an expanding pellet unless you have more penetration than you need with a domed.

I agree with the premise that we don't need to keep looking for higher and higher fpe in our airguns. I want my guns to shoot a projectiles accurately at 800-900 fps so it has a decent trajectory. I test penetration but so far that gives me enough. My Prod is less than this and works fine but I have been using my other guns more at least recently. My fpe doesn't exceed 35 fpe except for my Avenger in 25 caliber and I may turn it's regulator down.

I've also seen the videos of the South African guys shooting in much more wide open spaces than I hunt and I can see why they want more power and better balistics than I need. But I don't need it for what I do.

But if you are going to use pellets, I think your fpe should be what will give a pellet it is accurate with 800-900 fps. Up through 25 caliber I think even with heavy pellets that is less than 40 fpe.

Please do not follow the crazy logic of 1 fpe/lb. That is just not enough. All animals deserve a clean quick death. I think 15 fpe at impact is much better but that might be a little conservative. I'd rather be wrong on that side of things, however. But I would also argue that if you go much over 25 for reasons other than trajectory (and most of my guns are there) you have plenty for clean kills at reasonable ranges.

 

[JimD]

The other point I want to make is that fpe is not a great way to determine what we need. We need to make a big enough hole deep enough in the animal to hit vitals and cause it to loose blood to the brain quickly. How wide a diameter the hole needs to be is a function of the size of the animal. A 22 caliber hole through a deer will let it run a long ways and even potentially recover. A 22 caliber hole through the vitals of a squirrel will drop it every time.

One reason that PBs use 1000 ft lbs as a rule of thumb for power to deer hunt is they are usually using a 6mm to 30 caliber gun and a hole that diameter will not kill quickly so they need expansion and penetration. Expansion really reduces penetration. So more fpe is needed. I have a flintlock and while I have not killed deer with it it obviously has been done and it doesn't have nearly 1000 ft lbs. But it is 45 caliber and that is a big enough hole to have a clean kill on a deer. It doesn't need to expand. So less fpe are necessary.

So my thinking is the real criteria should be a wide enough diameter deep enough hole. Not a certain fpe.

I will also grant that clean kills from brain shots take less penetration, need a smaller diameter hole, and just require less energy than body shots. But they also require a very disciplined hunter willing to pass on all shots that do not give them a nice clear path to the brain. I want to use guns that will kill cleanly on brain or body shots.

 

[Impact701]

I have only been hunting with an air rifle for the past 5 or so years.

I have hunted all of my life with firearms.

Shot placement is key !

In my experience hunting with the minimum ftlbs. doesn't give you any margin of error for the human factor.

Maybe I misjudged range or wind hold a little bit, a few extra ftlbs along with a bullet (slug) that expands still will make a humane kill.

In this video is my .25 M3 shooting a H&N 40gr Heavy at a 8 inch cucumber at 28 yards, 77 ftlbs on impact.

This is why the 40gr heavy is my new favorite hollow point for pdogg'n !

 

[Shooting Targets]

As the realty agents will say... Location, location, location!

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!

Although there was some luck involved, I did practice shooting pears and actually blades of grass before I made my first tree rat kill at that range. After the first one, I was sure it was just luck.

Then, a couple of days later, I made 2 more tree rat kills at the same range. So... yes, luck played a large part, but preparation at that range did make the difference for even trying the shot at a live animal.

I haven't had another chance for a shot at that range. If you are interested, see my threads by clicking on my name/moniker. If you don't, no problem! (smile)

Thanks again for the video! I think we may be kindred spirits! (chuckle)

p.s.

I feed the cottontails here... so I don't know if they are easier to kill. After I had to put down my last cat, these cottontails, doves, robins and woodpeckers are my pets. (smile)

I'll try to take some pics the next time I think about it. But don't expect too much from my little flip-phone camera. (smile)

Yes, I am not a rich man.

good stuff.

 

[Shooting Targets]

The other point I want to make is that fpe is not a great way to determine what we need. We need to make a big enough hole deep enough in the animal to hit vitals and cause it to loose blood to the brain quickly. How wide a diameter the hole needs to be is a function of the size of the animal. A 22 caliber hole through a deer will let it run a long ways and even potentially recover. A 22 caliber hole through the vitals of a squirrel will drop it every time.

One reason that PBs use 1000 ft lbs as a rule of thumb for power to deer hunt is they are usually using a 6mm to 30 caliber gun and a hole that diameter will not kill quickly so they need expansion and penetration. Expansion really reduces penetration. So more fpe is needed. I have a flintlock and while I have not killed deer with it it obviously has been done and it doesn't have nearly 1000 ft lbs. But it is 45 caliber and that is a big enough hole to have a clean kill on a deer. It doesn't need to expand. So less fpe are necessary.

So my thinking is the real criteria should be a wide enough diameter deep enough hole. Not a certain fpe.

I will also grant that clean kills from brain shots take less penetration, need a smaller diameter hole, and just require less energy than body shots. But they also require a very disciplined hunter willing to pass on all shots that do not give them a nice clear path to the brain. I want to use guns that will kill cleanly on brain or body shots.

Good points as well.

 

[Shooting Targets]

Nice video. Rabbits are surprisingly frail creatures. Tenacity is certainly not in their DNA.

Ft-lbs is a handy number for comparing guns of a similar class. It does not transfer well when comparing very dissimilar projectiles. ie. air to powder or even big heavy slow powder (45-70) to light fast powder burners.

I wonder if airgunnings hyper focus of ft-lbs stems from the Crowns mistrust of their subjects and overly stringent limiting of the common people to 12 ft-lbs.

ahhhh the crown.....

 

[Shooting Targets]

I think 1 fpe per pound of animal is much too low for routine clean kills. I hit a squirrel in the shoulder with a 177 at about 5 fpe and it took several days for it to die. The problem was the pellet did not make it through the shoulder into the vitals. If I had missed the big bones of the shoulder it would have probably worked but I retired that gun from squirrel shooting. (I found the squirrel dead in the yard several days after I shot it) I also lost a couple with my Prod when it was tuned to less than 15 fpe. My placement might have been bad, I can't say for certain but I thought it was a good lung/heart shot in both cases. I turned it up to about 18 fpe at the muzzle and the next 11 were nice clean kills. All shots were within 30 yards.

I also tested penetration with my Prod on a dead squirrel at 25 yards. At the original tune, only really heavy pellets would shoot through from side to side even when no heavy bone was hit. With the power turned up a little, most shots would shoot through. I'm sorry but I just don't believe you can get pass through routinely on squirrels with less than about 15 fpe at impact. I've shot them, and I've tested penetration on a couple dead ones and it just doesn't work that way. I'm shooting simple domed pellets because they are the most accurate in my guns. I've also tested penetration in wet paper and a little bit in ballistic gel and I think simple domed pellets penetrate best. I cannot see going to an expanding pellet unless you have more penetration than you need with a domed.

I agree with the premise that we don't need to keep looking for higher and higher fpe in our airguns. I want my guns to shoot a projectiles accurately at 800-900 fps so it has a decent trajectory. I test penetration but so far that gives me enough. My Prod is less than this and works fine but I have been using my other guns more at least recently. My fpe doesn't exceed 35 fpe except for my Avenger in 25 caliber and I may turn it's regulator down.

I've also seen the videos of the South African guys shooting in much more wide open spaces than I hunt and I can see why they want more power and better balistics than I need. But I don't need it for what I do.

But if you are going to use pellets, I think your fpe should be what will give a pellet it is accurate with 800-900 fps. Up through 25 caliber I think even with heavy pellets that is less than 40 fpe.

Please do not follow the crazy logic of 1 fpe/lb. That is just not enough. All animals deserve a clean quick death. I think 15 fpe at impact is much better but that might be a little conservative. I'd rather be wrong on that side of things, however. But I would also argue that if you go much over 25 for reasons other than trajectory (and most of my guns are there) you have plenty for clean kills at reasonable ranges.

Yea I agree those are really really rough estimate and we are talking perfect shots. With airguns though we do need those perfect shots or dang near those.

 

[Mickshooter]

When hunting or used to hunt. I focused more on pellet drop that would be effected by a branch or twig. So more power gave me a flatter shooting curb. Most times power was an overkill and pellet pass thru can definitely be a problem with potential objects behind the target.

 

[JimD]

I agree we cannot hunt with an air rifle like I have with a shotgun. Close doesn't work. Hitting them anywhere is not good enough. But I have dropped all the squirrels I know I've hit in the front half of the body (including the head/neck) with air rifles with at least 18 fpe at the muzzle. The placement that seems to result in the furthest run after impact is right in the middle of the chest from the front. With my 25, both the squirrels I've hit this way ran and they were the only ones of 20 that ran. But the furthest they went was about 15 feet. My records are not as good with my little Prod (18 fpe 22 caliber) but I know the last 11 have all been nice clean kills and I know some were body shots. I only recently got a high power 177 but the first two squirrels I've shot with it were also clean kills, one was a body shot.

I would not call the necessary placement "perfect" but I think we need to place our pellets or slugs like we would a bullet on a deer. Our projectile needs to go at least into the vitals. Double shoulder shots have worked well for me as have near side or off side shoulder hits. Head or neck hits have always resulted in DRT. If I do not have a decent path to the vitals or I am too shaky for proper placement, I wait or pass. I am more of a limitation than my rifles (the ones I still use on game). The issue with placement is the relatively small size of our targets. But that keeps it interesting.

 

[trent.sears]

Since I haven't hunted larger animals in a long while, I can't counter your claim, but I still say shot placement, shot placement, shot placement is the key to clean, quick kills.

Nothing will change my mind about that. Accuracy/precision makes ALL the difference. If I was hunting for meat to survive, that would be another story.

But, for 99+ percent of hunters today, that is definitely NOT the case. There is no excuse for poorly placed shots IMHO. Yes, everyone misses and everyone has a bad day, but expecting or calling a clean kill one where the animal bleeds out, no matter what the size is just a cop out for lack of accuracy/precision IMHO.

Yeah, I know... I am about to get lambasted by all/most? of the "hunters" for what I just said. But facts are facts. Rationalize it all you want to... (smile)

To my way of thinking it takes both. I'm new here and largely am a powderburner guy. You can take large game with small calibers, like .22lr, if you are a good enough shot. It's easier to take game with a larger caliber as it gives more forgiveness for a less than perfect shot. The key is finding the balance between power and accuracy. It's doesn't matter how hard a projectile hits if it doesn't hit a vital organ, but if the shot is perfect but there isn't enough energy to do enough damage to the organ it's even worse.

 

[rigbymauser]

I killed quiet a few rabbits with a Diana 38 using Beeman Silver Jets in .177cal. Within 30 yards just about all pellets went through doing sideshots. The old flatheaded copperhead pellets did it too for grey treerats.
A 177cal lead pellet is lethal. Today having slugs weighing +20grain doing 30 ft/ibs or more in .177cal is a potential mankiller if murphys law occur...

 

[houston]

All the noobs want power power power. Lol

 

[trent.sears]

All the noobs want power power power. Lol

Is that ad hominem directed at me or just a general insult rather than an argument? If it's directed at me personally that's a pretty silly take away from what I wrote. I can also tell you I'm only new to airguns, not hunting and what it takes to make a kill in general. I've killed probably around 500 pigs in the last 5 years in various manners, ranging from no weapon, to knife, to bow to many different calibers of firearm. Not to mention the various other game I've taken throughout my short (ish) life. There are a lot of ways to get a kill, power/energy almost always gives more room for error, in real world hunting situations, assuming there is adequate accuracy. Again though there is a balancing act that takes place in any given hunting situation.

 

[beerthief]

As the realty agents will say... Location, location, location!

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!

Although there was some luck involved, I did practice shooting pears and actually blades of grass before I made my first tree rat kill at that range. After the first one, I was sure it was just luck.

Then, a couple of days later, I made 2 more tree rat kills at the same range. So... yes, luck played a large part, but preparation at that range did make the difference for even trying the shot at a live animal.

I haven't had another chance for a shot at that range. If you are interested, see my threads by clicking on my name/moniker. If you don't, no problem! (smile)

Thanks again for the video! I think we may be kindred spirits! (chuckle)

p.s.

I feed the cottontails here... so I don't know if they are easier to kill. After I had to put down my last cat, these cottontails, doves, robins and woodpeckers are my pets. (smile)

I'll try to take some pics the next time I think about it. But don't expect too much from my little flip-phone camera. (smile)

Yes, I am not a rich man.

oh but you are rich , you could be stuck in an apartment with heave traffic outside and no animals to feed and watch

 

[beerthief]

noobs ???? the manufactures advertise high power till it overflows in the market areas that allow high power . They control what you see and so you want high power and this is America land of glut . IF it is worth doing it is worth doing to excess . Cars are a great example .

 

[houston]

Is that ad hominem directed at me or just a general insult rather than an argument? If it's directed at me personally that's a pretty silly take away from what I wrote. I can also tell you I'm only new to airguns, not hunting and what it takes to make a kill in general. I've killed probably around 500 pigs in the last 5 years in various manners, ranging from no weapon, to knife, to bow to many different calibers of firearm. Not to mention the various other game I've taken throughout my short (ish) life. There are a lot of ways to get a kill, power/energy almost always gives more room for error, in real world hunting situations, assuming there is adequate accuracy. Again though there is a balancing act that takes place in any given hunting situation.

Its a fact jack !...been in the sport along time. Ive seen many of posts of new people asking for more fpe.

 

[L.Leon]

Its a fact jack !...been in the sport along time. Ive seen many of posts of new people asking for more fpe.

True, and unfortunate because you can do so much with lower FPE. Newer shooters seem to be more susceptible to this higher power from airguns phenomenon. Most savvy shooters come to air guns because of their lower power. In many instances even 30 FPE is too much for pesting or hunting. For target shooting? Whatever caliber floats your boat. It’s all good though, there is no “one size fits all”.

 

[RadioFlyer]

To AirArcher66,

Both thumbs up! Earned Nickname (long over due): Silent Operator. Scary self control.
Show em how it’s done! Experience is the Mother of accomplishment!
Way to to put the meat on the table.

Somewhere near Schoffield.

Most enjoyed Sir. Thank you ( Big Smiles)

 

[trent.sears]

Its a fact jack !...been in the sport along time. Ive seen many of posts of new people asking for more fpe.

Okay, why did they want it? Was it more FPE for the sake of FPE? Was it more FPE because they where trying to hunt larger game like pigs or yotes? Was it more FPE just as an experiment to see what the gun was capable of, like a lot of experienced air gunners seem to have done on here? In my experience people rarely spend a bunch of time and money just because, there is almost always something they are trying to achieve. Some people just have a curious mind and want to see where the limits are. It doesn't surprise me that a new hunter would want an increase in energy as a means to increase their shot options or to compensate for errors in aim. It doesn't surprise me that people who already hunt something like pigs or yotes would want more FPE to get the most out of an air rifle while still maintaining some of the benefits of an air rifle like sound reduction. I've lurked on here off and on for years and all of these are also things if seen experienced air gunners want as well. Like I've said in several post every hunter/shooter will have specific goals that are unique to them. This will mean there is a specific balance they will be trying to strike. Someone shooting squirrels off a bird feeder 15 yards out their window, shooting off the table, will want something different than a guy shooting pigs under a feeder 30 yards in front of a bow stand. I can tell you I personally have a safe full of powderburners, and what gun I carry will depend on what shots I'm expecting to take and the conditions that day. Some days it's something with a lot of energy like a slug gun, other does it's something really fast for bucking the wind, usually it's just a well balanced caliber like .243 or 308.