N/A How much to clean barrel?

[elh0102]

Not so.

The worry is not about causing gouges or groves, its the fine abrasion that brushes leave on soft metals. Rods are also notorious for contacting the bore and damaging the lands.

Patches alone are sufficient to clean barrels.

Abrasions = accelerated leading build up.

I agree, and I've seen barrel damage from cleaning rods also, but not from the brush. I was a serious CF benchrest shooter for years, a discipline in which bore care is practically a religion. Used properly, the rod does not contact the bore, or with no pressure. Most damage occurs at the crown, when folks push the rod through and let it bang around the crown going out and back in. I've also seen damage from rods used with a very tight fitting brush and without a precision rod guide to control the flex. Patches alone are sufficient to clean virtually all air rifle barrels, which is why I questioned the OP's need to clean, given good accuracy. That said, I have no experience with the HP rifles that are popular, and becoming more powerful. I expect that bore fouling may become a greater issue with such rifles.

 

[Firewalker]

I agree, and I've seen barrel damage from cleaning rods also, but not from the brush. I was a serious CF benchrest shooter for years, a discipline in which bore care is practically a religion. Used properly, the rod does not contact the bore, or with no pressure. Most damage occurs at the crown, when folks push the rod through and let it bang around the crown going out and back in. I've also seen damage from rods used with a very tight fitting brush and without a precision rod guide to control the flex. Patches alone are sufficient to clean virtually all air rifle barrels, which is why I questioned the OP's need to clean, given good accuracy. That said, I have no experience with the HP rifles that are popular, and becoming more powerful. I expect that bore fouling may become a greater issue with such rifles.

I understand, I have a few BR guns still but you are talking apples to kumquats, CF barrels (especially breaches) are much harder, use much better metals with higher nickel content etc.

Metals used:
1117 - per Quackenbush
4140 - general powder burners
4150 - military
416R - stainless modified for rifle barrels.

First number: Yield Strength in kpsi (1000 psi)
Second number: Tensile Strength, in kpsi.
Third number: Brinell Hardness H_b units
4th Number: Rockwell HRB (interpolated from Brinell if necessary)
5th Number: Rockwell HRC (if quoted)

The last dozen air gun barrels and liners I have tested are 20-28 Bh, my 6.5 Creedmoor is 60 Bh.

The old wives tail that brushes are fine in soft air gun barrels seems to continue no matter how much data is shared.

 

[Star7]

I suspect that the powder burners are all CrMo hi strength steel and can tolerate more abusive cleaning regimen. I used to shoot both 7.62X51 and 5.56 in various competitive sports (talking 10's of thousands of rounds) and had no qualms about bronze brush use.

If I wanted to make the very smoothest rifled barrels for AG use, I would use leaded steel. I would not use a bronze brush on that. I do not know if AG are made with leaded steel, but I do not use bronze brushes just in case.

Many BP barrels are leaded steel and there have been reports of damage from aggressive brushing. I do not know how true they are but try not to use bronze brushes on my BP barrels.

 

[elh0102]

I understand, I have a few BR guns still but you are talking apples to kumquats, CF barrels (especially breaches) are much harder, use much better metals with higher nickel content etc.

Metals used:
1117 - per Quackenbush
4140 - general powder burners
4150 - military
416R - stainless modified for rifle barrels.

First number: Yield Strength in kpsi (1000 psi)
Second number: Tensile Strength, in kpsi.
Third number: Brinell Hardness H_b units
4th Number: Rockwell HRB (interpolated from Brinell if necessary)
5th Number: Rockwell HRC (if quoted)

The last dozen air gun barrels and liners I have tested are 20-28 Bh, my 6.5 Creedmoor is 60 Bh.

The old wives tail that brushes are fine in soft air gun barrels seems to continue no matter how much data is shared.

Thanks, I've learned something today. I seldom use a brush in my air rifle barrels, but in the future, I'll use nylon if I need to brush.

 

[Bobbybeef]

I put patches till there is no more black

 

[Jaxjax]

I understand, I have a few BR guns still but you are talking apples to kumquats, CF barrels (especially breaches) are much harder, use much better metals with higher nickel content etc.

Metals used:
1117 - per Quackenbush
4140 - general powder burners
4150 - military
416R - stainless modified for rifle barrels.

First number: Yield Strength in kpsi (1000 psi)
Second number: Tensile Strength, in kpsi.
Third number: Brinell Hardness H_b units
4th Number: Rockwell HRB (interpolated from Brinell if necessary)
5th Number: Rockwell HRC (if quoted)

The last dozen air gun barrels and liners I have tested are 20-28 Bh, my 6.5 Creedmoor is 60 Bh.

The old wives tail that brushes are fine in soft air gun barrels seems to continue no matter how much data is shared.

I run several 416R barrels in airguns but would like to know what LW SS barrels are.? I see mention of 17-4 in SS but ?

 

[CanMike]

Good discussion so far on this. Seems lots of different techniques. I ran some patches on mine as I never cleaned it when new and it has about 500 rounds through it so figured I would clean to see how dirty. A lot of the crud in first post may be from new barrel gunk as was mentioned by someone.

Probably should have cleaned it when opened the box.


Mike

 

[Centercut]

I’ve been using brass brushes on Airgun barrels for years. Most of the time just a few wet patches followed by a few dry work well enough. But with AEA or JTS pellets just a few patches don’t do the trick. They leave deposits in the barrel that patches can’t remove. So a few strokes with a lubricated brass brush will loosen up the material and allow the patches to do their job. I’ve never damaged or ruined a barrel with a brass brush… not sure where that old wives tale comes from that a much softer metal can scratch a significantly harder metal…?

 

[Firewalker]

I’ve been using brass brushes on Airgun barrels for years. Most of the time just a few wet patches followed by a few dry work well enough. But with AEA or JTS pellets just a few patches don’t do the trick. They leave deposits in the barrel that patches can’t remove. So a few strokes with a lubricated brass brush will loosen up the material and allow the patches to do their job. I’ve never damaged or ruined a barrel with a brass brush… not sure where that old wives tale comes from that a much softer metal can scratch a significantly harder metal…?

So, you didn't read what I posted?

 

[elh0102]

So, you didn't read what I posted?

I'll interrupt to offer a comment. I read your post, and as I said, I found it interesting and educational. As a result, I'll probably opt more for nylon brushes with air rifle barrels. But, that said, I always believe that there is no substitute for experience. I've been cleaning air rifle barrels a long time, using both nylon and bronze brushes. I have never experienced any damage from their use, so I have to put some weight on that experience. The barrel damage that I have observed first-hand has consistently resulted from insufficient control of the rod, not the brush. Your due diligence in offering information is commendable. It's always better to know than not know, even if the value of that knowledge may not be clear or absolute.

 

[Centercut]

So, you didn't read what I posted?

Yes. Thank you. How would you recommend removing lead impacted in the grooves (especially in the choke area) from harder alloys like the AEA and JTS pellets, and some slugs? Patches will not remove this, even 20 or 30 patches combination wet/dry.

 

[Jaxjax]

Was watching an interview again with Erik Cortina & Frank Green last night & when Frank was explaining his view on NO use of bronze brushes WITH abrasives without damage Erik did defend the opposite in his friendly way. A BR buddy of Erik's was ready to toss a 1k barrel because he did just use a bronze brush on it..Bartlein only supports use of nylon.. EriK told him to scope it & send him the pics. He did & told him all is well & go shoot the dang thing. It shot competitive & that drama was over. I think Bartlein is just protecting themselves from people using abrasives & bronze & having to replace there barrels over & over again. Erik is highly aggressive in barrel cleaning & so are many others. Most all of the pro's are it seems. Preemptive is the mentality to minimize the risk of accuracy loss during a match . I use nylon & brass body when needed. I don't see how anyone shooting proper slugs are getting away with it without cleaning there barrels. Boggles me but to each there own. All the barrel makers have a slightly different view on all this.

 

[Centercut]

Was watching an interview again with Erik Cortina & Frank Green last night & when Frank was explaining his view on NO use of bronze brushes WITH abrasives without damage Erik did defend the opposite in his friendly way. A BR buddy of Erik's was ready to toss a 1k barrel because he did just use a bronze brush on it..Bartlein only supports use of nylon.. EriK told him to scope it & send him the pics. He did & told him all is well & go shoot the dang thing. It shot competitive & that drama was over. I think Bartlein is just protecting themselves from people using abrasives & bronze & having to replace there barrels over & over again. Erik is highly aggressive in barrel cleaning & so are many others. Most all of the pro's are it seems. Preemptive is the mentality to minimize the risk of accuracy loss during a match . I use nylon & brass body when needed. I don't see how anyone shooting proper slugs are getting away with it without cleaning there barrels. Boggles me but to each there own. All the barrel makers have a slightly different view on all this.

Good post. Im just a bit confused how brass can scratch steel?

Like I said above, I’ve used the brass brushes in all Airguns, from CZ to LW to FX liners, to SubMOA and everything in between. I’ve had barrels that shot like crap even after dozens of patches. Then ten strokes with a lubricated brass brush and accuracy back to normal.

Prior to EBR I did this in front of 5 or 6 Team members with a Red Wolf .22 (pellets) and also with a .25 Panthera (slugs). Neither would hold inside a quarter at 50 yards, even after cleaning with pull throughs. Once I cleaned them with brass brush, then wet patches then dry patches, both guns would hold inside a dime at 50 yards. Hard to argue when you see the results in front of your eyes…

 

[manabeknives]

The times where a brass brush will scratch a steel barrel is when it's a cheap, cold rolled, low carbon steel
You might see this in barrels made in foriegn markets for their budget range.
This is a soft steel with a Mohs hardness of 60+


A good quality barrel from Lothar Walther or CZ will be using a chrome/moly or stainless barrels
the steel being used has a hardness of 85+

Brass has a Moh's hardness range 55-65
no way is it going to scratch or damage the barrel from LW
it could do damage to a cheaper steel, but i haven't experienced it in any of my rifles

There are bronze wire brushes ...these can be significantly harder than the brass with a hardness range of 65-80
i would avoid this type

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I don't clean an air rifle often. Maybe 5k-7k shots. And I only shoot pellets.

A couple patches with Kroil and a few minutes between pulls is all it takes. I finish up with an acetone patch and it's always been snow white.

Lead fouling is a different story. I've never had an airgun barrel fouled with lead. Only a few loose particles which isnt "leading". A barrel that's actually leaded needs a lot of brushing or electrolysis.

I believe what Firewalker said about the brush in a soft air rifle barrel. If I had a leaded up barrel I'd probably brush it anyway. A soaking with penetrant for a couple hours might shorten the ordeal. An electrolytic process would probably be best and get more out with no damage. Barrels that are leaded are tough to get clean.

The rod is your worst enemy. Aluminum is soft but its oxides aren't. And aluminum gets embedded with abrasive grit. I like carbon and coated steel rods with no joints. I wipe my rod with a clean cloth every stroke on my PB's and use a rod guide

A rod guide might be tricky to make for most airguns and probably won't keep the rod from dragging anyway. I like string or a patchworm. Removing lead with a series of patches on a string coated with JB bore paste might work if the leading is not too thick.

I've used vinegar on stainless pistol barrels with good success. Lead is really soluble and dissolves rapidly in vinegar. I'm not sure it's better than Kroil and it's a rust hazard if you don't clean it out. Used carefully it might work with an airgun barrel.

Leading is minimized by using the right alloy lead, not pushing it too fast, sizing it right and adding grooves in the projectile to break up the bearing surface and carry lubricant. If my barrel is leading I'd stop what I was doing and address the issues causing it by finding the right projectile and velocity to prevent it.

 

[manabeknives]

I don't clean an air rifle often. Maybe 5k-7k shots.

A couple patches with Kroil and a few minutes between pulls is all it takes. I finish up with an acetone patch and it's always been snow white.

Lead fouling is a different story. I've never had an airgun barrel fouled with lead. Only a few loose particles which isnt "leading". A barrel that's actually leaded needs a lot of brushing or electrolysis.

I believe what Firewalker said about the brush in a soft air rifle barrel. If I had a leaded up barrel I'd probably brush it anyway. A soaking with penetrant for a couple hours might shorten the ordeal. An electrolytic process would probably be best and get more out with no damage. Barrels that are leaded are tough to get clean.

The rod is your worst enemy. Aluminum is soft but its oxides aren't. And aluminum gets embedded with abrasive grit. I like carbon and coated steel rods with no joints. I wipe my rod with a clean cloth every stroke on my PB's and use a rod guide

A rod guide might be tricky to make for most airguns and probably won't keep the rod from dragging anyway. I like string or a patchworm. Removing lead with a series of patches on a string coated with JB bore paste might work if the leading is not too thick.

I've used vinegar on stainless pistol barrels with good success. Lead is really soluble and dissolves rapidly in vinegar. I'm not sure it's better than Kroil and it's a rust hazard if you don't clean it out. Used carefully it might work with an airgun barrel.

the one big problem with using vinegar is that it can produce Lead Acetate which can cause lead poisoning..absorbed through the skin
would not recommend using
strange how the Romans used to use it as a sweetner

 

[Firewalker]

Yes. Thank you. How would you recommend removing lead impacted in the grooves (especially in the choke area) from harder alloys like the AEA and JTS pellets, and some slugs? Patches will not remove this, even 20 or 30 patches combination wet/dry.

That's the very point I was making. Lead build-up at the choke, imperfections in the grooves grabbing lead from harder alloys is a matter of barrel prep and then consistent care of the surface.

Have you ever seen Lexan with swirrel marks from cleaning with a soft, non-abrasive cloth?

The fibers weren't hard enough to make those marks but it's no longer smooth like it was when polished.

Brushes, jags, rods, dust, deposits and other items/materials that are not as hard as mild steel have no problem burnishing the surface.

We think of burnishing as a smoothing operation, which it technically is but on a microscopic level, "stuff" hard enough to burnish the surface will abrade the surface allowing faster fouling.

Patches help avoid burnishing by allowing "stuff" to be carried out with less abrasion. Brushes accelerate the abrasion and in a well prepped bore, are not nessasary to remove lead.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

the one big problem with using vinegar is that it can produce Lead Acetate which can cause lead poisoning..absorbed through the skin
would not recommend using
strange how the Romans used to use it as a sweetner

Wear gloves if it's an issue. Do it in a dish so no solution gets splattered around.

Vinegar on a rag is how they remediate lead contamination after removing paint and tile. It works great. It's effective at getting under the plated lead in a barrel too. As with any other solvent it's going to carry some hazardous compounds. The solution is to use proper ppe and engineering controls.

Any heavy metal in solution poses a hazard. Protect yourself and use the proper engineering controls and your good to go.

 

[Jaxjax]

Good post. Im just a bit confused how brass can scratch steel?

Agree.
I'm clean barrel guy. . I don't believe in the brass brush gig messing barrels up with mild cleaners or the gazzilion types of CLP, oils etc. I'm sure its just the hard core abrasive get the copper/lead/powder out/ ran with a bronze brush stuff Frank see's on his scope & measurements ...& then he wasn't there when it happened so it's still a story of how it really happened. Frank also admits lotsa of use with JB Blue,...but not a fan of JB bore bright. Seems most other barrel makers don't have any problem with brushes, but the component that hold the brushes in place . Hart recommends BR people to brass brush every 10-20 shots with hoppes 9 or shooters choice, Butch's bore shine etc. for an example, but they also state the too clean gig for dried out stainless steel. Most of them seem to agree on the latter. I think everyone does it different & if it's working then it's good regardless of what anyone says about it.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I have been told the steel in an air rifle barrel is much softer than the steel they use on PB barrels.

A couple posts in this thread back that up pretty well. There are lots of internet experts and a lot of BS on this topic so my knowledge is second hand. My third eye chakra tells me an airgun barrel is pretty soft stuff. I've bent a couple and that supports my suspicions. I'm sure different makers use different stuff and there are always exceptions. I've been convinced they are generally soft stuff.

What may not be an issue with PB barrels may be an issue with airgun barrels. I honestly don't know. I do know that cleaning an airgun barrel only takes a couple of patches and 4 drops of Kroil. So I'm happy sidestepping the brush issue completely.

If I just had to brush my airgun barrel I think I'd go with a nylon brush. Synthetic brushes are often impregnated with abrasives to make them work better. I have no idea if a nylon bore brush is safe or not. It SEEMS to be a safe choice.

A cotton flannel patch works dandy on my revolvers. The fibers grab the lead really well. Just scrubbing with a dry patch gets everything out that's not really bonded to the steel. A few drops of Kroil and a half hour later another patch scrubs most of it out. If I stay on top of it I don't really need a brush that often.

I've wondered about PCP's and leading. Especially with smooth sided soft slugs. Soft lead over about 850-950 fps will lead a revolver. You really have to stay on top of it.

Scrubbing lead out of a bore sucks big time. If Im shooting lead at speeds fast enough to smear it on the rifling I'm going to change projectiles or slow things down.