Other How rare are the spring piston 10M airguns?

[specie]

I think for every thousand FWB 300S there are:

100 FWB 150/300
3 FWB 110
75 Anschutz 380
50 Anschutz 250
25 Anschutz 220
1 Anschutz LG54
100 HW 55
200 Walther LG 55
100 Walther LGV (original type)
5 Falke 90 (if this is even a 10 M airgun?)
200 Diana 75
200 Diana 60/65/66

Revised estimates, Walther and Diana, Jan 29

 

[DualMagMike]

Then variants within models which become more and more rare such as Tyro's, double set triggers, etc...

 

[Toxylon]

I agree with the general outline, such as FWB300S being clearly the most common, and rare Anschützes getting rarer the earlier they are. But I see many more LG55's and LGV originals than HW55's, while D75's seem to be among the most common non-FWB 10 M guns here.

Endless variants, too, especially in the Walthers and HW's.

 

[specie]

Yup, some of the variations are so rare as to be one-off's, and then there are the HW55(F), the FWB RT, your FWB300T that's an exhibition grade airgun...I decided not to list these.
Yup, I guess LG55's are more common, I thought D75's pretty hard-to-find though?
And some are impossible to find: I've been searching for a LG54 for years now...

 

[MDriskill]

Back in the day I bought several guns from the German auction site eGun. Shipping to the US is basically impossible these days, but it's still a very interesting place to look around.

One day last week there were about 15 Walther LG 55's and LGV's, but only one HW 55S, which is kinda typical. The Walthers were obviously much more popular and successful match guns in their day. (Tom Gaylord has written, though, that an HW 55 took the last major match won by a recoiling springer, the 1969 German national championship; the recoil-suppressed Anschutz 220, Diana 60, and FWB 150 had all been around 5+ years by then.)

I would also guess that Diana 75's were much more popular than you might think in Germany. Yes outnumbered by FWB's, but not by a huge margin.

 

[MDriskill]

I'd love to know more about the German target-shooting scene between the end of the war and the recoilless era. It must have been a fascinating time; you can tell from looking at guns of the day that stocks, triggers, and sights at least were evolving pretty fast.

The Falke 90 definitely counted as a competition rifle in those days, and besides the leading Walthers and HW's there were dedicated target versions of the Diana 35, Diana 50, BSF S54, Webley Mk 3, BSA Airsporter, Haenel models IV M, 303, 311, and 312, and quite a few others. No doubt some pre-war beauties got dusted off for duty at the local range, too...

Some of these guns are inefficient dead ends that would make a modern performance-oriented airgunner pull his hair out - but to me their quirkiness is part of the appeal. You haven't lived until you've wrestled a Haenel 311 into submission- the world's only bolt-action-cocking, tap-loading, diopter-sighted, spring-piston match rifle (and would you believe, responsible for a literal one-hole group fired on Tom Gaylord's blog):

The Haenel 311 target rifle: Part 4 | Blog | Pyramyd AIR

by Tom GaylordWriting as B.B. Pelletier Haenel 311 target rifle. Part 1Part 2Part 3 History of airguns This report covers: The test Air Arms Falcon| H&N Finale Match Light Alibi RWS R10 Match Pistol Qiang Yuan Training Gamo Match Discussion Summary I'm doing this accuracy test because I...

www.pyramydair.com

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have bought 3 within the last year snd passed on more than that. All from various forums. They are out there but if they are nice the go fast, don't dither.

 

[Ievgen721]

I'd love to know more about the German target-shooting scene between the end of the war and the recoilless era. It must have been a fascinating time; you can tell from looking at guns of the day that stocks, triggers, and sights at least were evolving pretty fast.

The Falke 90 definitely counted as a competition rifle in those days, and besides the leading Walthers and HW's there were dedicated target versions of the Diana 35, Diana 50, BSF S54, Webley Mk 3, BSA Airsporter, Haenel models IV M, 303, 311, and 312, and quite a few others. No doubt some pre-war beauties got dusted off for duty at the local range, too...

Some of these guns are inefficient dead ends that would make a modern performance-oriented airgunner pull his hair out - but to me their quirkiness is part of the appeal. You haven't lived until you've wrestled a Haenel 311 into submission- the world's only bolt-action-cocking, tap-loading, diopter-sighted, spring-piston match rifle (and would you believe, responsible for a literal one-hole group fired on Tom Gaylord's blog):

The Haenel 311 target rifle: Part 4 | Blog | Pyramyd AIR

by Tom GaylordWriting as B.B. Pelletier Haenel 311 target rifle. Part 1Part 2Part 3 History of airguns This report covers: The test Air Arms Falcon| H&N Finale Match Light Alibi RWS R10 Match Pistol Qiang Yuan Training Gamo Match Discussion Summary I'm doing this accuracy test because I...

www.pyramydair.com

The Haenel models IV M and 303 SUPER, are not target rifles. Although the Haenel 303S has a full-fledged Olympic-level diopter sight, this rifle is a sporter.

 

[MDriskill]

I may be guilty of some sloppy semantics! I was rather broad in my definitions, and including some old timers and simpler models we might today call "target" rather than "match" rifles...

The Haenel 303 has evolved a lot since early post-war days. It never had a full-race match stock, but with a diopter sight early ones served as an entry-level target gun to some shooters. The Diana 35/b and 50/b, Anschutz 335S, BSA Airsporter Club, and others were also straight sporter actions with match sights (303 pic from "Another Airgun Blog"):

You could argue that even the best springer match guns of pre-recoilless days - Walthers and HW's included - were really little more than refined sporters with cooler stocks and sights. All they could do to control recoil was reduce power and increase weight.

The old Haenel model IV-M I referred to is a rare beast seldom seen in the US. We may be thinking of different guns; the 1950's IV-M was a true match air rifle, about the ultimate that Haenel could conjure up in post-war East German days. Its combination of tap loading and top-lever cocking is unique as far as I know (pic from Danny Garvin's "Vintage Airguns Gallery"):

 

[vintageairguncollector@gm]

I think for every thousand FWB 300S there are:

100 FWB 150/300
3 FWB 110
75 Anschutz 380
50 Anschutz 250
25 Anschutz 220
1 Anschutz LG54
100 HW 55
200 Walther LG 55
100 Walther LGV (original type)
5 Falke 90 (if this is even a 10 M airgun?)
200 Diana 75
200 Diana 60/65/66

Revised estimates, Walther and Diana, Jan 29

Can you do a breakdown for the 10M pistols too?

 

[Ievgen721]

I may be guilty of some sloppy semantics! I was rather broad in my definitions, and including some old timers we might today call "target" rather than "match" rifles...

The Haenel 303 has evolved a lot since early post-war days. It never had a full-race match stock, but with a diopter sight early ones served as an entry-level target gun to some shooters. The Diana 35/b and 50/b, Anschutz 335S, BSA Airsporter Club, and others were also straight sporter actions with match sights (303 pic from "Another Airgun Blog"):
View attachment 533949

You could argue that even the best springer match guns of pre-recoilless days - Walthers and HW's included - were really little more than refined sporters with cooler stocks and sights. All they could do to control recoil was reduce power and increase weight.

The old Haenel model IV M I referred to is a rare beast seldom seen in the US. We may be thinking of different guns; the 1950's IV M absolutely was a match air rifle, about the ultimate that Haenel could conjure up in post-war East German days. Its combination of tap loading and top-lever cocking is unique as far as I know (pic from Danny Garvin's "Vintage Airguns Gallery"):
View attachment 533947

In Warsaw Pact countries, Haenel 311 rifles were used in domestic competitions, later Haenel 312. FWB300 was used in international competitions. No other spring-piston rifles were used in professional sports. Almost always these rifles were the property of clubs or organizations, with very rare exceptions. Yes, I was wrong about the Haenel model IV M, I thought of another model. Haenel model IV M was probably so rare in the 1960-70s that it never fell into the hands of ordinary users. Personally, I have never seen it, and only heard about its existence. Haenels from Suhl are my passion and I always try to buy them. I have a friend in Houston who, like me, collects Haenels, unfortunately he does not participate in forums, I will ask him to register here.

 

[Motorhead]

Then there are the Diana 75's in Running boar and HV being even harder to find.

 

[MDriskill]

In Warsaw Pact countries, Haenel 311 rifles were used in domestic competitions, later Haenel 312. FWB300 was used in international competitions. No other spring-piston rifles were used in professional sports. Almost always these rifles were the property of clubs or organizations, with very rare exceptions. Yes, I was wrong about the Haenel model IV M, I thought of another model. Haenel model IV M was probably so rare in the 1960-70s that it never fell into the hands of ordinary users. Personally, I have never seen it, and only heard about its existence. Haenels from Suhl are my passion and I always try to buy them. I have a friend in Houston who, like me, collects Haenels, unfortunately he does not participate in forums, I will ask him to register here.

Thank you - very interesting! I hope you will post some Haenel pics here. Again, my first post above was liberal with what I called a "target rifle," LOL...I'm sure nobody used a Haenel 303, or several others on my list, beyond local club/school level competition. This Diana 35/b is another example of this sort of junior/intro target rifle.

Many moons ago, I owned a 310, two 311's, and a 312 (and yes, I kick myself hard for selling them). One was an as-new service member 311-4 bring-back, boxed with both sights and all paperwork and accessories.... A friend that I usually see at the Hickory show brings pre-war Haenels to display that are some of the best-quality airguns I've ever seen.

The model IV-M has to be one of the wackiest designs ever. They are quite rare and bring eye-watering money when they pop up on German auction sites. I have wondered if the later 311 was a sort of simplified evolution of it, and possibly shared some parts.

 

[MDriskill]

Then there are the Diana 75's in Running boar and HV being even harder to find.

Top rifle in this pic may take the cake as the rarest sub-variant of a well-known model I've ever seen - the late Frank Korn's HW 55 TF DST: early finger-groove Tyro stock; no locking breech latch lever; double-set triggers! The serial dates from about 1955.

The others are also rare no-lever "F" variants, covering all three of classic HW 55 stock variants of the day - top to bottom an SF, MF, and another TF.

 

[Ievgen721]

This is what I have for now 303 Super,310,311-4.

 

[mj102]

Top rifle in this pic may take the cake as the rarest sub-variant of a well-known model I've ever seen: the late Frank Korn's HW 55 TF with early finger-groove Tyro stock, no breech latch, and double-set triggers! The serial dates from about 1955.

The other three are also rare "F" variants.

View attachment 534190

That double set TF is simply amazing!

 

[MDriskill]

This is what I have for now 303 Super,310,311-4.

Those are great! Thanks for the pics.

Lovely wood on the 311, and interesting how it and the 303 S share a lot of details, including a very similar shape to the butt.

 

[Ievgen721]

Those are great! Thanks for the pics.

Lovely wood on the 311, and interesting how it and the 303 S share a lot of details, including a very similar shape to the butt.

Oh, this is a separate topic for condemnation, when I finish with this collection, which is dedicated to shooting sports in the Warsaw Pact countries, I will open a separate topic. In this photo, one of the rarest Haenel, 311-4 was produced only for one year, the last year of the company's existence and was supplied from the factory with two sights, diopter and micrometer, as well as with an adjustable match butt, in the older 311-2 this was not. Probably, Haenel 303S was also released during this period, so they have a lot in common. Both rifles have diopter sights of the old model, the new sights 311-4 have a lower base, but otherwise are identical.

 

[MDriskill]

Yeah, the 311-4 I had included all that stuff...kicking myself yet again! Geez I should have kept it for the cool double sight set alone.

I remember that gun used Anschutz front sight inserts, which was interesting. The 311-2 I had years ago used much different, smaller inserts.

 

[Ievgen721]

Yeah, the 311-4 I had included all that stuff...kicking myself yet again! Geez I should have kept it for the cool double sight set alone.

I remember that gun used Anschutz front sight inserts, which was interesting. The 311-2 I had years ago used much different, smaller inserts.

The inserts in the front sight are identical to the inserts in the Walther LG200/300.