Thanks. I'll start the learning process immediately. Maybe someday I'll know as much about it as you do.
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How to Use a Corbin S Press - A Thread Geared Toward Beginners
- Thread starter Ezana4CE
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Thanks. I'll start the learning process immediately. Maybe someday I'll know as much about it as you do.
@Airgun-hobbyist I think the above quote in bold type is very sound advice and that's about the point where I would conclude discussing swaging airgun slugs using the Corbin S Press with or for beginners. Now I have to make time to make more and to shoot at longer ranges.
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Got up early, cleaned some wire, then cut it, and started swaging some more cores to make more slugs.
I was thinking about the above comment in post #42. That’s where I would concluded discussing swaging Airgun slugs on the Corbin S Press with beginners. Are there any other elements of the basics of swaging Airgun slugs that S Press users following this thread think should be included that has not been mentioned or discussed?
I was thinking about the above comment in post #42. That’s where I would concluded discussing swaging Airgun slugs on the Corbin S Press with beginners. Are there any other elements of the basics of swaging Airgun slugs that S Press users following this thread think should be included that has not been mentioned or discussed?
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something I dont think has been said yet. That would be dwell time ( the time you let the press handel remain in the maximum down stroke of the travel ). In my expierence the biigger slug you are sawgeing the greater the effect. It takes time for the lead to flow completly into all surfaces of the die and out the bleed holes. Doing 22 slugs it deosnt take long but larger changes things. I was swgeing 550 grain bullets for my long range muzzleloader this morning wich made me think of adding this comment. On these big guys it can be a few tenths of a grain to half grain. on 22 or 25 grain airgun slugs it may only be a tenth but perfection is what we are striveing for right!
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Something else to consider when making hollow ogive slugs (see a photo of the first stage after forming hollow-ogive cores in post #43) that air gets trapped in the hollow. As a result, when forming the tip, air can get pushed out through the sprue holes in the die. Often times the air is trapped behind a strand of sprue and will send it flying out. You can hear a slight "pop" sound as the air escapes. I see this more on the up stroke. This has happened to me several times which adds more time to the clean up tracking down lead fragments that flew out during swaging. Anyone else experience this? If so, have you come up with measures to prevent the sprue from flying away from the press as opposed to dropping into the primer catch tray? One thing I done that helps is top place the palm of my off hand in front of the front-facing hole in the die to stop the sprue from traveling so far or hitting me in the abdomen. It doesn't hurt, it just kales it tougher to track down all of the fragments on the floor when it's time to clean up.
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Not with my .217 slugs...
First there should not be that much lead being pushed out the Point form die....
One you set your weight with the core die, and also fully form the base.
You will only apply a small amount of pressure to form the point..
Not enough to bleed off more lead... This will change the weight set in forming of the Core!!!
The only time you should have any lead bleeding out of the Point form die is when you do the One step method of make a slug....this where you will form a slug from a raw slug of lead...
The Hollow point is formed around the tapered ejector pin.....
First there should not be that much lead being pushed out the Point form die....
One you set your weight with the core die, and also fully form the base.
You will only apply a small amount of pressure to form the point..
Not enough to bleed off more lead... This will change the weight set in forming of the Core!!!
The only time you should have any lead bleeding out of the Point form die is when you do the One step method of make a slug....this where you will form a slug from a raw slug of lead...
The Hollow point is formed around the tapered ejector pin.....
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@Ca_Varminter From my observations, during the hollow-ogive core formIng process a couple of things can happen. Cores can be be formed that are too light. For me this is a definite 0.5 grains less than the target weight. If this occurs from the core being too close to the finished weight when cut (this can result from being the first few cuts when setting the weight on the cutter or being the last cut from a cut strand of wire as opposed to cutting cores directly from the spool) or leaving a core in the hollow-ogive core forming die longer than others on the down stroke, more lead is bled off causing a slightly lighter core. An example would be if a 153 grain core is used to form a 150 slug and after forming the hollow ogive the formed hollow-ogive core is 151 grains or less, then the slug produced will likely be reduced to a 145 grain slug. Reason being, the hollow tip in the point forming die may not be uniform. It may be obviously wider than others because the core was too close to the finished weight. When I notice variance in the appearance of slugs I alter the weight to ensure that all slugs produced are uniform in not only weight, but appearance. When the weight is altered say 3-4 grains, I can hear the air escaping from the hollow in the projectile as I swage it down to the next target weight group. I've done it too fast and had a hollow point pop off of the point forming punch when I grabbed it before having a firm grip on the slug. Pulling it off made a "pop" sound. In the case where the core is heavier, say a 159 grains, this will become a 155 grain slug. Instead of me applying a lot more pressure to make it a 153 grain formed hollow-ogive core from a 159 grain cut core, I will stop applying pressure where I encounter the greatest amount of resistance in the down stroke, which can sometimes be well before the final portion of the cam turning over at the bottom of the stroke. This core will be weighed and set aside to make an different weight slug after the others within the target weight have been completed. In these cases when a new weight is set after the majority of the batch are made, the external punch holder will be adjusted to the new target weight. In this process 3 or 4 grains may be bled off via the point-forming die to achieve the target weight and a fully formed tip. This will require more than slight pressure applied to the ram handle. Existing literature suggests that shaving weight this way should collapse the hollow cavity, but this has not occurred. Also in this process air can be trapped behind the existing sprue within the bleed hole due to air being forced from within the hollow ogive until the tip is fully formed around the point-forming internal punch, as well as more lead will be extruded from the die because of the weight alteration.
I'm not saying this is the correct way, but as a beginner to swaging this is how I've been doing it. For me it's tough reading through the literature and extracting what is relevant to what I'm making as an airgunner from instructions written for centerfire bullet makers using copper jackets. Especially towards the end of a long day which is part of the reason this thread exists. This thread is for people who have not done much swaging, infrequent swaging, but mainly for those that are entirely new to swaging with the Corbin S Press only having read what the manufacturer has published (which is mainly for centerfire bullet makers from what I've encountered). I have yet to use the one-step process. If I am doing something detrimental to my dies, I'd like to get this straight now so that I don't mislead others into damaging their equipment or so that anyone else considering doing things this way can have access to better information before purchasing.
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@Airgun-hobbyist I am also in the habit of spinning the projectile around on the point-forming internal punch and sending the ram up an additional time as well. Again, depending upon how long I leave the ram up can determine how much lead is bled off as @ndwind mentioned in post #44 and my response in #45. He referred to the amount of time with the ram up (handle down) as "dwell time." This can affect the projectile's weight and my decision to lump it in with slugs within the the target weight or to alter the weight and make it a lighter slug. An issue that I've noticed with tip uniformity is that if the formed cores are too close to the target weight or under the target weight then the surface edge of the hollow tip may be uneven or it may have a larger opening. That won't stop me from sending through the point-forming die the first time knowing they will come out undersized. There will be little to no resistance on the down stroke with these projectiles. When they come out they will be weighed and set aside to create lighter projectiles later. I have yet to experience sprue being stuck in the die's bleed hole as @Ca_Varminter mentioned in post #5.
I have only made one batch of boattail slugs and I am unsure if I spun those around. I will keep that in mind. Thank you for the tip.
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This is a good demonstration of the one-step process and some things to avoid. I like this S Press swaging video by @Xbowsniper (RIP Tom Holland) I may have the issue of the sprue flying out because I'm liberally using swage lube, I'm unsure.
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Well let get some perspective on this.....
When Forming the Cores, this the where you set the Final weight....
The PF-1 Point Form Die comes in Two Flavors....
With or Without bleed holes!!!!
The Bleed hole is only for make the slugs in the above Single Stroke Method..
In the the 2 die Method.... The PF die is only the "Gently" Form the Point.. Not Weight adjustment!!!
Check it here......http://www.bulletswage.com/airgun.htm
When Forming the Cores, this the where you set the Final weight....
The PF-1 Point Form Die comes in Two Flavors....
With or Without bleed holes!!!!
The Bleed hole is only for make the slugs in the above Single Stroke Method..
In the the 2 die Method.... The PF die is only the "Gently" Form the Point.. Not Weight adjustment!!!
Check it here......http://www.bulletswage.com/airgun.htm
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@Ca_Varminter I have read the linked info quoted above and posted it. As I have stated doing so hasn't altered the tip causing any rolling. My point forming die has two bleed holes. I'm trying to find a video of this process, because some of what I'm doing goes against was written here. What I'm most concerned about is if it can damage a punch. I haven't seen anywhere that it says that it can. But it seems that It may be best to save the formed cores of different weights and underweight slugs for batches made for the next closest weight. Or taking the underweight slugs and reforming them into formed cores. The main thing is to be sure nothing is being damaged.
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You won't damage PF dies....
This all depends on the style of slug you are going for...
Open tip.... or a smaller formed tip...
Also keep in mind.... if you are applying enough pressure for lead to bleed out.
That the Open Cavity of the core is nearly collapsed on itself!!
Just make sure you have "Heavy" cores if you going to bleed off lead in the Point forming stage....
Just to keep those bleed hole clear....
Good Luck
This all depends on the style of slug you are going for...
Open tip.... or a smaller formed tip...
Also keep in mind.... if you are applying enough pressure for lead to bleed out.
That the Open Cavity of the core is nearly collapsed on itself!!
Just make sure you have "Heavy" cores if you going to bleed off lead in the Point forming stage....
Just to keep those bleed hole clear....
Good Luck
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*Addendum to post #48 addressing the effects of trapped air when making hollow-ogive, hollow-point slugs*
I believe that I’ve now spent enough time to determine what is causing the sprue to fly out of the bleed holes in the dies. It is in fact due to the amount of air trapped in the hollow ogive.
When placing a formed core over a point forming internal punch I can either place the core right over the top of the punch close to flush with the face of the die or I can place the corned core over the tip of the internal punch and press down with the pad of my index finger and seat the formed core within the die so that it is better aligned. Either way, air gets trapped between the hollow tip that is formed once engage the ram applying pressure to form the point.
With the air trapped in the ogive I have observed two things that can occur:
1) the air can be forced out of the bleed hole as the ram is engaged and pressure is applied to form (shape/somewhat close) the point of the slug. This causes hiss/slightly squeaky sound towards the top of the ram stroke (handle towards the floor). Around the moment that the cam turns over, a small rush of air can propel the sprue out of the die and into your shirt ultimately landing at your feet (on one side of a doe with two bleed holes). Or on the ram’s way down (the upstroke/ the handle pushed back towards the press) it appears that some sort of vacuum occurs (in not sure that it’s a vacuum) where once the straight wall of the slug clears the bleed hole, air escapes and ejects the sprue with a slight blast of air. It is audible. Finally you may also experience the slug popping off of the point forming die making an audible “pop” or if Mya be stuck on the die/internal punch tip requiring a firm grasp between thumb and insect finger to be wiggled and pulled up, again mailing an audible “pop” sound.
I’ve tried this using a liberal amount of swaging lube and a very conservative layer of film using swage lube. The result are pretty similar. My guess is that this occurrence speaks to the tight machining tolerances of these precision parts (die and punches). I’m not saying that I’m absolutely right in my explanation of why this occurs. However, this has been my observation based upon my experience swaging hollow-ogive, hollow-point slugs with the Corbin S Press.
I believe that I’ve now spent enough time to determine what is causing the sprue to fly out of the bleed holes in the dies. It is in fact due to the amount of air trapped in the hollow ogive.
When placing a formed core over a point forming internal punch I can either place the core right over the top of the punch close to flush with the face of the die or I can place the corned core over the tip of the internal punch and press down with the pad of my index finger and seat the formed core within the die so that it is better aligned. Either way, air gets trapped between the hollow tip that is formed once engage the ram applying pressure to form the point.
With the air trapped in the ogive I have observed two things that can occur:
1) the air can be forced out of the bleed hole as the ram is engaged and pressure is applied to form (shape/somewhat close) the point of the slug. This causes hiss/slightly squeaky sound towards the top of the ram stroke (handle towards the floor). Around the moment that the cam turns over, a small rush of air can propel the sprue out of the die and into your shirt ultimately landing at your feet (on one side of a doe with two bleed holes). Or on the ram’s way down (the upstroke/ the handle pushed back towards the press) it appears that some sort of vacuum occurs (in not sure that it’s a vacuum) where once the straight wall of the slug clears the bleed hole, air escapes and ejects the sprue with a slight blast of air. It is audible. Finally you may also experience the slug popping off of the point forming die making an audible “pop” or if Mya be stuck on the die/internal punch tip requiring a firm grasp between thumb and insect finger to be wiggled and pulled up, again mailing an audible “pop” sound.
I’ve tried this using a liberal amount of swaging lube and a very conservative layer of film using swage lube. The result are pretty similar. My guess is that this occurrence speaks to the tight machining tolerances of these precision parts (die and punches). I’m not saying that I’m absolutely right in my explanation of why this occurs. However, this has been my observation based upon my experience swaging hollow-ogive, hollow-point slugs with the Corbin S Press.
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I believe it is too much lube! It takes very little. for my .218 i put a drop in the bottom of a small plastic container aaaaaand gentally shake the cores around. thats all it takes for them for my .447 i put a dab on a Qtip and swab the core. I think what you are expierencing is hydrulic pressure expelling the bleed off wire out the bleed hole. the residual lube build up in the die pushes air ahead of the swaged lead because it cant escape alongside. If im doing an extended session { several hundred slugs } I will periodicaly wipe out the die to clear lube so I dont have too much. Call or email Kelly at Corbin see what he says. Ive been swaging about a year and a half but sure not an expert!
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@ndwind It may be and it may not be. The only thing that makes me think that it may still be a lube issue is the vacuum sometimes created.
Info like this isn't too helpful. The answer to the question below is very vague. Especially the part about using too much lube.
I cleaned all of my dies and punches last night. Next time out I can compare them and see if there is a difference. If this keeps occurring I cannot think of anything else to conclude. Do you or have you made hollow-ogive slugs? I intend to eventually discuss this with someone at Corbin.
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To be clear you guys, I'm still trying to figure some things out. Please don't take my last few posts as gospel. They are based upon my observations. I'm discussing my process and mistakes in my process in the event that others encounter similar things so that if you do, you may have a better understanding of what's going on. I keep reading the Corbin literature and all of the information is not clear to me the first time around. What I do know is that some of the projectiles I've made seem to shoot pretty well so far. I believe that I will improve upon my process the more that I learn and the more that I do.
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I do make hollow ogive slugs for .218 they form easy and shoot very well! just that it's an extra step in the process. Woogie-man and I are shooting together and they shoot great in both of our guns. he has also started swaging .218 slugs. from time to time, I'll see a piece form the bleed hole shoot out of the hole a little but not a big deal. and .218 only has one bleed hole. my .447 has three and the pieces are only about .189 long they just drop to the base of the press when the next one pushes it out.
If you ever want to visit about swaging or air guns you may call 701-261-7575
If you ever want to visit about swaging or air guns you may call 701-261-7575
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