Is it known yet if they will have oversized bores like the rifles, as in .223 and .254? And what about the 177? If that isn’t oversized and has a sensible TR, I might prefer that on the basis of more pellet/slug options.
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𖦏 Huben GK1 Pistol: .22cal -vs.- .25cal: for Hollow Point Expansion
- Thread starter JungleShooter
- Start date
I pre-ordered the 25 caliber GK1 because I already have a 25 caliber K1. I have a lifetime supply of different 25 caliber pellets and slugs so I stuck with what I already own. I mainly just want something small that I can play around with for target shooting and small pest control, carry it as a side piece when I'm just going for a walk in the woods and I might need to scare off something and also something for my 11-year-old son to practice shooting with that might be easier for him to hold than one of the bigger rifles. For actual serious hunting I'm taking my k1 or my Western Rattler 357. With all that said I am really excited for this pistol though, I get a 100 FPE with my 25 caliber k1 that I have 47 grain slugs for. Obviously I'm not expecting to get that with a pistol but if I can get about 40 FPE with a pistol I'm going to be super happy with that
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If we are looking at a very good expanding pellet in .22 the H&N Baracuda hunter ( not the hunter extreme ) expands fantastically, I did a bunch of testing years ago and it was a great hollowpoint pellet.
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As far as I am aware most air rifle munitions cannot sustain or sometimes even achieve the velocities required for hollow points to possess any utility. Furthermore I am confident that the .25 can exceed 40 fpe by a large margin and any time I have seen its power represented that low or lower it has been with munitions of 36 grains or less and the highest fpe that has been represented for the .25 has always been with the heaviest ammo, of which I believe is about 50 grains which I personally have already purchased in anticipation of receiving my preorder. I will provide personal results of .25 with 50 grain at max 300 bar fill for 1 full magazine when I have the resources to provide said data.
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Yeah, that's kind of the point of this thread. In the end, I'm looking for a high impact velocity with a HP projectile, however that can be achieved.
The reasoning is as follows:
(1) I want hollow point (HP) expansion with my GK1.
(2) For HP expansion I need a high impact velocity.
(3) For a high impact velocity I need a high muzzle velocity. Which is different from a high muzzle energy.
For example, a
26gr (BC 0.028) with
40FPE ME muzzle energy has
832fps MV muzzle velocity,
and at 15y still a
774fps IV impact velocity on the quarry.
➠ Likely resulting in a pretty good HP expansion.
However, a
40gr slug (BC 0.100), more efficient in the barrel and therefore with
45FPE ME muzzle energy (higher!), and
721fpe MV muzzle velocity,
and at 15y still a
708fps IV impact velocity (lower!) on the quarry.
➠ NOT likely resulting in a good HP expansion.
You see that the higher ME due to the much heavier projectile does not help my concern for a higher impact velocity....
Matthias
Joel,
thank you, I look forward to it.
Matthias
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I have the 22 caliber on order. I have the viper 25 cal pistol as well as many other rifles in each caliber. I think the biggest thing for me is that the 22 caliber has the best ammo selections way more than the 25, and also if you want to go with a heavy slug you can get there in 22 caliber to be very comparable to 25, just way more versatile in 22 caliber
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Well.... 
What can I say....
"Help, I have fallen and can't get up!"
Nope, not that one.
➠ More like: "I have fallen down a new-to-me rabbit hole and I can't stop my fall!"
This particular rabbit hole is the pew-pew-pistol-pesting-semi-automatic hole.
Yeah, yesterday a scope was delivered for me.
For a gun that I can't afford yet.
And that is not even out yet....
I got it bad....
Matthias
What can I say....
"Help, I have fallen and can't get up!"
Nope, not that one.
➠ More like: "I have fallen down a new-to-me rabbit hole and I can't stop my fall!"
This particular rabbit hole is the pew-pew-pistol-pesting-semi-automatic hole.
Yeah, yesterday a scope was delivered for me.
For a gun that I can't afford yet.
And that is not even out yet....
I got it bad....
Matthias
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I've been shooting my Viper for a month now in 25 caliber. If there is anything I have gained from shooting a lower powered air pistol it is that your range is extremely short. You can get it to be accurate for longer yardage, but you have to rest on bags. The penetration is not what you would think. Have not had any pass through shots. Have taken squirrels, ground hogs, even one armadillo! It penetrated the shell but didn't pass through. Just my early observation. That is why after reading opinions on sights for the GK1 I have ordered a trijicon sro.
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I have used those 17gr air boss in my Artemis PP700 and my Artemis PP750 with very good results. I’m a pistol enthusiast, had three AP-16’s which all eventually leaked air so I returned them. I have two Artemis PP700’s in .22 cal and a .22 cal Artemis PP750 that shoot superbly accurate out to 50-60 yards. I’ve also pre-ordered the GK1 in .25 cal because I want a .25 cal pistol.
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Two days ago Shooting Gear Reviews posted a shorts video of the GK1 .25 cal delivering 81 foot pounds of energy and there’s YouTube videos out there of the .22 GK1 doing 61 fpe.
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WOW...!
I. Am. In. Awe.
(Which begs the question:
If that kind of power can be produced with such a short barrel —
and no modifications besides turning an external adjuster —
WHY are most rifles with three times that barrel length so limited in power?!?
) Thanks for the info.
I'll check it out.Matthias
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There’s another video from Amadeus 360 where he shoots the .25 GK1 using JSB 33.95 gr. at 1078 fps which is 87.63 FPE
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No way !!!...that is crazy.There’s another video from Amadeus 360 where he shoots the .25 GK1 using JSB 33.95 gr. at 1078 fps which is 87.63 FPE
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There is a diminishing return in terms of barrel that is true even in the pb world. extending barrel length by 25% often yields a gain in speed by less than 10% and the longer the barrel you are starting with the more true this becomes. In the pb world the goal is to burn off all the powder behind the bullet. Therefore you can get a .308 to shoot very close to its top speed out of a shorter than a 5.56 because while the diameter is only slightly larger, the surface area is significantly larger, and when you take the surface area and multiply it by the entire length, the volume you end up with out of let's say an eight inch barrel is enormous by comparison. Which provides plenty of space for all the powder to be burnt to provide plenty of propellant force behind the projectile. While with the 5.56 you need greater length for higher pressures to have enough time to be built up.(Which begs the question:
If that kind of power can be produced with such a short barrel —
and no modifications besides turning an external adjuster —
WHY are most rifles with three times that barrel length so limited in power?!?
In airguns however, you are pretty much starting off at the very top of your total pressure. As the projectile moves down the barrel the volume behind the projectile only increase and therefore the total pressure only continues to drop off rapidly. Point being is that longer barrels provide more speed but at a rapidly diminishing return, (logarithmic scale) even in the pb world and the diminishing return is worse with larger calibers and likely even worse still in the airgun world.
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It’s also important to note that you’ll get one shot at that higher power and then a steep downward cliff. That’s because the GK1 is unregulated and the first shot is at 350bar. However, if you tone down the power, it produces a remarkably flat string from 310-180bar, because the unique hammerless valve system compensates for the absence of a regulator by staying open longer at lower reservoir pressures. Of course, there are limits to this but if you’re happy with 30-40fpe, which is still pretty remarkable for a pistol, it can produce very low ES, comparable to a regulated gun. That’s the most valuable property of this gun for me, although it is pretty amazing that an air pistol can make a shot or two that matches pistol 22lr ammo power.
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For one most rifles aren’t using 350 bar to produce full power. For example: the k1 bullpup has a 24” barrel, almost 3 times the length. But most k1 bull pups are setup with the reg at 150 bar on average. I’m running my k1 bullpup at 175 bar and still able to achieve 90 ft lbs.WOW...!
I. Am. In. Awe.
(Which begs the question:
If that kind of power can be produced with such a short barrel —
and no modifications besides turning an external adjuster —
WHY are most rifles with three times that barrel length so limited in power?!?
Thanks for the info.
Matthias
What’s really amazing about this valve system is the fact that it can open so easily with 350 bar!!! Most valves would suffer from valve lock at that pressure. I am slightly concerned that we will see some sear failures in the near future. You see the only thing holding the valve closed is a sear. With 350 bar pressing on the sear it is putting quite the strain on that sear. Normally this valve system is dealing with regulated pressure no more than 200 bar. We know the titanium tubes can take it but real question is how much can that sear take? We’ve already heard of the mag release lever snapping on a couple guns. Time will tell.
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Joel and Colin,
thanks for explanations that I can understand. This is all pretty unknown territory to me, internal ballistics, that is.
I understand that the GK1 is unregulated, and has a 350bar airtube. So, two factors contributing to higher power than "typical rifles."
➔ However, it the begs the follow-up question:
Why don't manufacturers give us higher regulator settings to choose from in order to achieve higher power? RTI offers 200bar max., Huma 180 or 150bar, others I don't know.
The barrel length has been a constant nagging in my brain:
I was deciding between a 500mm or 600mm barrel for a .30 with balanced valve (Prophet 2).
When comparing the published specs it seemed like the longer barrel didn't offer that much additional power.
(However the longer gun had a longer [=bigger] bottle, so that's where the much higher shotcount came from.)
And as I am dreaming about an extreme long range gun, I've been wondering if I need to defect over to FX in order to get access to an 800mm barrel — or if I can stay with 600mm and do fine at 300y?
Matthias
PS: I hope the mods won't chastise me for derrailing my own thread.
thanks for explanations that I can understand.
This is all pretty unknown territory to me, internal ballistics, that is. I understand that the GK1 is unregulated, and has a 350bar airtube. So, two factors contributing to higher power than "typical rifles."➔ However, it the begs the follow-up question:
Why don't manufacturers give us higher regulator settings to choose from in order to achieve higher power? RTI offers 200bar max., Huma 180 or 150bar, others I don't know.
The barrel length has been a constant nagging in my brain: I was deciding between a 500mm or 600mm barrel for a .30 with balanced valve (Prophet 2).
When comparing the published specs it seemed like the longer barrel didn't offer that much additional power.
(However the longer gun had a longer [=bigger] bottle, so that's where the much higher shotcount came from.)
And as I am dreaming about an extreme long range gun, I've been wondering if I need to defect over to FX in order to get access to an 800mm barrel — or if I can stay with 600mm and do fine at 300y?
Matthias
PS: I hope the mods won't chastise me for derrailing my own thread.
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As someone who recently acquired an FX mark II, I went to .35 to lob the heaviest projectile I could. The .35 is quite obviously shoe horned into the platform. It's not rigid enough to handle the recoil. If FX was making a barrel worth while, they wouldn't keep changing and make seven different kinds. I would prefer a lothar walther barrel rifled from end to end all day. Maybe in .30 everything works fine but if you are thinking about jumping to FX in .35 just to get a little bit more out of what you are doing I would personally advise against it.Joel and Colin,
thanks for explanations that I can understand.
➔ However, it the begs the follow-up question:
Why don't manufacturers give us higher regulator settings to choose from in order to achieve higher power? RTI offers 200bar max., Huma 180 or 150bar, others I don't know.
I was deciding between a 500mm or 600mm barrel for a .30 with balanced valve (Prophet 2).
When comparing the published specs it seemed like the longer barrel didn't offer that much additional power.
(However the longer gun had a longer [=bigger] bottle, so that's where the much higher shotcount came from.)
And as I am dreaming about an extreme long range gun, I've been wondering if I need to defect over to FX in order to get access to an 800mm barrel — or if I can stay with 600mm and do fine at 300y?
Matthias
PS: I hope the mods won't chastise me for derrailing my own thread.
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Thanks for the warning. Duely noted: The FX top level gun isn't all that sturdy (there's news!
) — especially in high caliber. ️Yeah, about caliber and extreme long range XLR: From what I understand the critical point is the ballistic coefficient of the projectile.
Depending on that I would choose the caliber.
Currently, if I'm not mistaken, Altaros slugs take the top spot. And they only go up to .25cal.
So, that's what I'd be looking for.... — once I save up enough money to get one step ahead of where I'm at (FYI: I stand right at the edge of a monstrous rabbit hole, and a sign on my left declares: "XLR")
Matthias
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