Here is an other spin off thread for the Huben pistol where members can share what ammo they have found works good,....... or bad in their hand cannon.
Huben Huben pistol ammo choice.
- Thread starter Nomadic Pirate 66
- Start date
I disagree on two counts. The theoretical POI shift at 88, 84, 80 and so on fpe (the first 3 high power shots), with a BC of 0.21, G1, 50 grains, at 100 yards, is -10.0", then -10.6", -11.2" and so on (Altaros slugs have 0.21 BC). That's 0.6 inches lower on every subsequent shot. This only probably doubles the group size for the first 5 shots, which is OK. Topping up air every 5 shots is trifling. 100 yards/meters improvised target shooting with a GK1, with slugs, should be doable and fun.
The second thing is that while people do complain about various European restrictive gun laws, those complaints are very often disingenuous. All countries have hunting licenses/permits. Do I want to own a Ruger 10/22 Charger? Yes, that's my favorite firearm, higher on my list then even something in 300 BLK (spoken from a distance). Can I own one 12 months from now? Yes. Would I bother going through the process? No, and that has been the case for years now. Not because I can't, but because I don't really want or need it enough, and I realize this anew every time I think about possibly getting the local hunting license. It would never leave the safe. There is nowhere to shoot it. Ammo is much more expensive than pellets. The list of impracticalities is very long, unless of course for hunting, which I don't actually care too much about. And if I did, it would be doable. The point is, restrictive laws are only a filter which filters genuine needs or wants, from not-so-serious needs or wants. This is speaking from own experience, of course.
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I think I will stick with pellets, MK II @ 900 fps is 60 FPE, EunJin @ 800 fps is 60 FPE that is really all I need to brain shoot hogs and my ranges are in the -/+20 yards with many opportunities at way shorter range, so I really have no need for bullets.
I want to try see how the 31gr Baracuda do but I heard they are to small, well we'll see.
I want to try see how the 31gr Baracuda do but I heard they are to small, well we'll see.
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Hi JD,
I appreciate your thoughtful response especially the insight into the licensing issue. I think that we just have a different perspective here in the US regarding the utility of airguns. Or at least, I do. I’d describe it in part as a Zen form of shooting, relative to PBs. I haven’t shot the GK1 at max power but I imagine that it’s not so Zen. I could be wrong but I enjoy shooting in my yard where I have a 100y range and I see no value in upsetting my neighbors or my beloved chickens. We all have our quirks.
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Seems to me a strength of pcps like the gk1 that there are enough choices and settings to accommodate various people's needs and wants.
Main reason I want to shoot slugs is I have the dies to make them myself as I already had the rifles too, and I've always liked how slugs that are wide enough never cause jams in a huben in the way that many pellets can. It's far cheaper for me to make my own slugs than to buy pellets and then I'm free to go shoot whenever I want as long as I have lead wire even if I'm low on funds otherwise. I do prefer the superior bc of slugs too
Main reason I want to shoot slugs is I have the dies to make them myself as I already had the rifles too, and I've always liked how slugs that are wide enough never cause jams in a huben in the way that many pellets can. It's far cheaper for me to make my own slugs than to buy pellets and then I'm free to go shoot whenever I want as long as I have lead wire even if I'm low on funds otherwise. I do prefer the superior bc of slugs too
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I do not shoot slugs mainly because of cost, but I do not see using my GK1 beyond 50 meters. So I am intrigued by your statement that your slugs are less expensive than pellets. I don't know how to do that. Can you explain your process and costs in detail please?
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i've been shooting slugs in my .22 gk1, i haven't found a pellet that is as consistently as accurate as the VK 28.5gr .223 slugs - tried jsb, jts, h&n and a few others I have, nothing could compete, especially at 50 yards, with those slugs, in my .22 - so that's what I use!
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I just obtained those slugs and will try them in my .22. Here’s a pic, with my name written on it, to confirm that I do actually own some (which I purchased based on wimpanzee’s previous recommendation; thanks).
If these do shoot with somewhere near the accuracy of my GTOs then I would be willing to use them because there should be a useable string. On that note, I shot some 40grain AVS .223 slugs last night (from 300bar) and witnessed both a dreadful Korean cliff in power (much more dramatic than JDs numbers), accompanied by very poor accuracy (relative to pellets) at just 40yards. Note that the lighter (22grain .223) AVS shoot very accurately from both the pistol and rifle, although not as well as the better pellets. FYI, pics of my rifles are available on other threads if needed.
Since the diameter and form factor of the swaged AGS slugs is the same for both weights (and the larger ones are not keyholing due to insufficient SF), I can only assume that the shotgun pattern from the first 6 shots of the 40grain is a function of the rapidly declining velocity. As I have observed with many other slug guns, a drop in speed does not simply yield a vertical drop in POI. It also yield shifts in the horizontal POI due to many factors including harmonics. This is why slug shooters expend a lot of effort in finding accuracy nodes at certain speeds. Adding in the extra variable of declining speed therefore cannot yield a good outcome. Of course, the GK1 may have some magical properties in .25 and I encourage you all to post groups to show them. You might be able to encourage a competitive shooter such as @Centercut to switch to using the GK1.
I would also be grateful to anyone who can post a shot string from a chronograph with ~50grain slugs shooting from 300-350bar. I’m just wondering, based on my Korean cliff (which I’d like to repeat before publishing), if my .22 is anomalous in that regard, relative to the .25. As Steve has pointed out to me via PM, we should all try to be productive members of the forum.
For the record, I also appreciate Asher’s philosophy of “live and let live”. Regarding costs of DIY slugs, this is another issue that has been discussed extensively on these forums and there is a search function at the top right of the page. Upvote 0
As I have reported on numerous occasions, extensive practice is necessary to maintain proficiency. Because of that belief, I shoot everyday. I am fortunate that I have 100 meters behind my house, which makes this possible. I try to shoot 1 or 2 magazines each session. That's somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 shots a year. The difference in cost between pellets and slugs for me is more 100% more for slugs. That's why I asked how @Asher does it.
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One of the last times I had my gk1 at the range I clocked the following velocities from the first 6 shots of 50.2 Grain .254s starting at 350 bar although I'm not certain what the ending pressure was:I just obtained those slugs and will try them in my .22. Here’s a pic, with my name written on it, to confirm that I do actually own some (which I purchased based on wimpanzee’s previous recommendation; thanks).
View attachment 415259
If these do shoot with somewhere near the accuracy of my GTOs then I would be willing to use them because there should be a useable string. On that note, I shot some 40grain AVS .223 slugs last night (from 300bar) and witnessed both a dreadful Korean cliff in power (much more dramatic than JDs numbers), accompanied by very poor accuracy (relative to pellets) at just 40yards. Note that the lighter (22grain .223) AVS shoot very accurately from both the pistol and rifle, although not as well as the better pellets. FYI, pics of my rifles are available on other threads if needed.
Since the diameter and form factor of the swaged AGS slugs is the same for both weights (and the larger ones are not keyholing due to insufficient SF), I can only assume that the shotgun pattern from the first 6 shots of the 40grain is a function of the rapidly declining velocity. As I have observed with many other slug guns, a drop in speed does not simply yield a vertical drop in POI. It also yield shifts in the horizontal POI due to many factors including harmonics. This is why slug shooters expend a lot of effort in finding accuracy nodes at certain speeds. Adding in the extra variable of declining speed therefore cannot yield a good outcome. Of course, the GK1 may have some magical properties in .25 and I encourage you all to post groups to show them. You might be able to encourage a competitive shooter such as @Centercut to switch to using the GK1.
I would also be grateful to anyone who can post a shot string from a chronograph with ~50grain slugs shooting from 300-350bar. I’m just wondering, based on my Korean cliff (which I’d like to repeat before publishing), if my .22 is anomalous in that regard, relative to the .25. As Steve has pointed out to me via PM, we should all try to be productive members of the forum.
820
815
812
796
782
764
To answer Steve, I swage my own with a Corbin s press. The equipment was expensive and I'm not sure if it's paid for itself in ammo savings yet, but when I buy lead from NSA, it's like $2.70ish per lb. A lb has 7000 grains in it. When making my 22 slugs at about 40 grains I use about 42 grains each of lead wire, because there has to be some bleed off, so a 25 lb spool can make me somewhere around 4350 slugs, assuming I only use it for 22s. I can make around 400 of these in a hour.l, maybe a bit more if I really crank it. So for roughly 11 hours of my time and somewhere around 85 bucks after shipping, I can have those 4350 slugs.
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On another note during a private exchange with @weevil. I realized that others may not have the same level of experience in guns that I have, so potentially I unjustifiably assumed everybody knows how to measure a gun's rifling twist rate. My method is quite simple and it works every time for me, so I'll just pass it on. I assume everyone has a cleaning rod. Mine is a typical box store cheap kit that I've had for many years. The rod floats on a bushing in the handle. I simply create a tight cloth or paper towel wad and then push it in to the barrel all the way to the end. You should mark this with a piece tape. Place an index mark on the tape at 12:00. Then slowly withdraw the rod until the wad just exits the barrel. Then measure the amount of rod rotation that occurred in degrees. Measure the length of the barrel and extrapolate the rotation observed with the measured length extended to 1 revolution. You have now measured the barrel's twist rate. In the case of my GK1 in .25, it was 180 degrees over 8 inches, which equates to 1 compete turn in 16".
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Thanks Asher! That is much more favorable than my numbers (which I just validated). This morning seeing very similar results of 892, 876, 844, 828, 786. Seems the relationship between pressure and power output has a less favorable slope in .22, which is not unexpected.
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I've noticed that the change in ammo weight would require a slight change of the spring tension, to get back to a nice consistent shot string.
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Are you referring to the power adjustment or something internal? If the former, my GK1 was maxed and could therefore only operate on the downslope of the power curve. Anyway, I have varmint knockers loaded for testing!
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First test of the VKs. I don’t recall wimpanzee suggesting a speed, so I set it to shoot them at 850fps at 250bar, which is the middle of my typical 300-200 range of use. Then filled to 300 and shot this string:
Huben 22
VK 28.5gr
Shot count: 12
Low: 786 FPS
Hi: 865 FPS
Avg: 838 FPS
Spread: 79 FPS
STD Dev: 21.0 FPS
13-Dec-2023 08:30:22,854,FPS,46.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:30:30,865,FPS,47.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:30:56,849,FPS,45.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:07,840,FPS,44.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:17,856,FPS,46.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:28,854,FPS,46.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:40,847,FPS,45.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:51,837,FPS,44.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:03,821,FPS,42.7,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:34,828,FPS,43.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:43,817,FPS,42.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:55,786,FPS,39.1,FT Lbs,
Stopped at 12 (190bar) because it was clearly on the downslope but encouragingly, the slugs formed one conglomerate at 30y, suggesting that they are shooting accurately. However, I’m not in need of 45fpe and I’d like to be able to use a full mag from 300bar, so I’ll retune for 820fps at 250bar and see how that improves the string.
Huben 22
VK 28.5gr
Shot count: 12
Low: 786 FPS
Hi: 865 FPS
Avg: 838 FPS
Spread: 79 FPS
STD Dev: 21.0 FPS
13-Dec-2023 08:30:22,854,FPS,46.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:30:30,865,FPS,47.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:30:56,849,FPS,45.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:07,840,FPS,44.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:17,856,FPS,46.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:28,854,FPS,46.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:40,847,FPS,45.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:31:51,837,FPS,44.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:03,821,FPS,42.7,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:34,828,FPS,43.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:43,817,FPS,42.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 08:32:55,786,FPS,39.1,FT Lbs,
Stopped at 12 (190bar) because it was clearly on the downslope but encouragingly, the slugs formed one conglomerate at 30y, suggesting that they are shooting accurately. However, I’m not in need of 45fpe and I’d like to be able to use a full mag from 300bar, so I’ll retune for 820fps at 250bar and see how that improves the string.
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I get a string from like 790 to 840 and back to 800 across one mag from a 310bar fill, goes down to 160bar or so.
Just got my gx cs4 last week, so its on to 350bar fills!
Just got my gx cs4 last week, so its on to 350bar fills!
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Here is my lower power string, again from 300bar, although the chrony missed shot#2:
Huben 22
VK 28.5gr
Shot count: 15
Low: 775 FPS
Hi: 817 FPS
Avg: 799 FPS
Spread: 42 FPS
STD Dev: 10.0 FPS
13-Dec-2023 09:07:37,817,FPS,42.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:23,810,FPS,41.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:35,786,FPS,39.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:51,803,FPS,40.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:09:03,805,FPS,41.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:09,796,FPS,40.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:24,800,FPS,40.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:38,798,FPS,40.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:51,803,FPS,40.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:02,807,FPS,41.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:34,807,FPS,41.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:44,800,FPS,40.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:14:04,789,FPS,39.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:15:00,796,FPS,40.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:15:12,775,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
Obviously, I was tuned to a bit lower speed than I thought (800), but the string was flat for 15 shots and then began to drop on shot 16. The bummer is that the accuracy wasn’t as good. While it melded slugs at 840, the group opened up a bit at this lower speed. This is again at 30y and I’ll show the first six because my duct seal block was a mess at the end…
I think that’s pretty good and my recollection of the AVS is fuzzy, so I’m going to repeat it now. I can say that I routinely do better with GTOs, typically getting a group less than half that size. However, it’s easier to shoot at lower power because things are less lively. It’s too cold right now for me to get in the garage and use the vice clamp!
So, not really conclusive at this point but my sense is that these guys favor the higher speed, which doesn’t work so well for my requirements. It’s unfortunate that they don’t have a lighter variant. 23-24 grain would be more useful to me…
Huben 22
VK 28.5gr
Shot count: 15
Low: 775 FPS
Hi: 817 FPS
Avg: 799 FPS
Spread: 42 FPS
STD Dev: 10.0 FPS
13-Dec-2023 09:07:37,817,FPS,42.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:23,810,FPS,41.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:35,786,FPS,39.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:08:51,803,FPS,40.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:09:03,805,FPS,41.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:09,796,FPS,40.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:24,800,FPS,40.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:38,798,FPS,40.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:12:51,803,FPS,40.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:02,807,FPS,41.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:34,807,FPS,41.3,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:13:44,800,FPS,40.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:14:04,789,FPS,39.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:15:00,796,FPS,40.1,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 09:15:12,775,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
Obviously, I was tuned to a bit lower speed than I thought (800), but the string was flat for 15 shots and then began to drop on shot 16. The bummer is that the accuracy wasn’t as good. While it melded slugs at 840, the group opened up a bit at this lower speed. This is again at 30y and I’ll show the first six because my duct seal block was a mess at the end…
I think that’s pretty good and my recollection of the AVS is fuzzy, so I’m going to repeat it now. I can say that I routinely do better with GTOs, typically getting a group less than half that size. However, it’s easier to shoot at lower power because things are less lively. It’s too cold right now for me to get in the garage and use the vice clamp!
So, not really conclusive at this point but my sense is that these guys favor the higher speed, which doesn’t work so well for my requirements. It’s unfortunate that they don’t have a lighter variant. 23-24 grain would be more useful to me…
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Dale sent me some 22 and 24 grain ones to try - he is making them if they are not listed for sale - you might contact him directly to see!
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Really interesting data (comparatively) from the AVS dish .223 22 grain! Did not change the power adjuster from the test shooting VKs at 800. Here is the string from 300bar. The chrony missed #7 this time. It must have been upset that I went to photograph the 6 shot group!
Huben 22
AVS 22.0gr
Shot count: 22
Low: 835 FPS
Hi: 881 FPS
Avg: 864 FPS
Spread: 46 FPS
STD Dev: 14.7 FPS
13-Dec-2023 10:08:06,840,FPS,34.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:25,849,FPS,35.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:41,847,FPS,35.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:51,851,FPS,35.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:09:01,849,FPS,35.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:09:10,868,FPS,36.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:22,854,FPS,35.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:33,872,FPS,37.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:45,872,FPS,37.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:00,877,FPS,37.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:17,877,FPS,37.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:33,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:46,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:14:05,881,(I rFPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:14:47,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:05,879,FPS,37.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:21,875,FPS,37.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:35,868,FPS,36.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:08,865,FPS,36.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:25,856,FPS,35.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:43,847,FPS,35.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:52,835,FPS,34.1,FT Lbs,
Note that I added more slugs to fully evaluate the curve, which was shifted down the pressure range, such that for the above data, final pressure is at 165bar. If I were to go for a mag full it would be shot numbers 3 to 22 encompassing 850, through 880 and back to 850fps. Guessing 280-180bar or thereabouts. My first 6 shots, which are shown below are therefore not the best to evaluate accuracy, but the results are here:
I recycled the sticker so the blip came from the earlier shooting
Huben 22
AVS 22.0gr
Shot count: 22
Low: 835 FPS
Hi: 881 FPS
Avg: 864 FPS
Spread: 46 FPS
STD Dev: 14.7 FPS
13-Dec-2023 10:08:06,840,FPS,34.5,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:25,849,FPS,35.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:41,847,FPS,35.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:08:51,851,FPS,35.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:09:01,849,FPS,35.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:09:10,868,FPS,36.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:22,854,FPS,35.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:33,872,FPS,37.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:12:45,872,FPS,37.2,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:00,877,FPS,37.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:17,877,FPS,37.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:33,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:13:46,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:14:05,881,(I rFPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:14:47,881,FPS,38.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:05,879,FPS,37.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:21,875,FPS,37.4,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:15:35,868,FPS,36.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:08,865,FPS,36.6,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:25,856,FPS,35.8,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:43,847,FPS,35.0,FT Lbs,
13-Dec-2023 10:18:52,835,FPS,34.1,FT Lbs,
Note that I added more slugs to fully evaluate the curve, which was shifted down the pressure range, such that for the above data, final pressure is at 165bar. If I were to go for a mag full it would be shot numbers 3 to 22 encompassing 850, through 880 and back to 850fps. Guessing 280-180bar or thereabouts. My first 6 shots, which are shown below are therefore not the best to evaluate accuracy, but the results are here:
I recycled the sticker so the blip came from the earlier shooting
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I will now shoot 6 at a starting pressure of 240bar, to exploit the really flat region of that string. For a target shooter, like JD, you can have 10 or so shots with an ES akin to (or better than) a regulated PCP. With GTOs, I can get a full mag that behaves that way and no doubt that contributes to their stellar performance.
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