Huggett ~ Shogun ~ Tatsu... sound level test

[DHart]

STO... yes, of course. I wouldn’t consider the dB numbers from my testing to be “absolute”. But the readings are probably fairly reliably “relative” to other readings taken with the same device. So, my primary objective was to determine how the different moderators tested relative to each other - not in absolute dB terms.

 

[STO]

STO... yes, of course. I woldn’t consiter the dB numbers from my testing to be absolute. But they are probably fairly reliably relative to other readings taken with the same device. I was at least able to determine how the different moderators tested relative to each other - not in absolute dB terms.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but that is what I'm trying to say specifically that you can NOT do with your phone app. I included a super sophisticated MS FingerPaint trying to illustrate what I'm talking about. To measure the peak sound level, how loud a moderator actually is, what you're trying to measure is the singular highest peak observed there. Most pickups (microphones) are simply not capable of accurately responding to a single brief pressure wave like this. Then, for the ones which are, you're looking at time duration which is incredibly brief. Each one of those vertical gridlines is 500 microseconds, that is to say 500 millionths of a second. The entire event, maximum to minimum, is over in well under a tenth of that. (highlighted in purple) The actual peak itself, the thing you're trying to measure is tiny. Your cellphone simply isn't sampling audio on this level. And then think of the software. Is it really looking for a microsecond long half pressure peak? Almost certainly not. If it were, it'd be really really poor at measuring, you know, normal sound levels like how loud a room is. 

What your cellphone is able to do, and is almost certainly doing, is sampling an average of something highlighted somewhere in the teal. And that is very reasonable, but it is also important to understand that it is not the peak measurement of the moderator, and so it will start to favor some moderators over others. One with a lower initial peak, but which produces more sound after that initial maximum event perhaps because it more effectively captures and delays the gas release, are technically quieter but will be read by such a meter as louder. Conversely something with a higher initial peak but which tapers off rapidly would likely be measured as much lower by your phone. 

I hope that makes a little more sense than my initial post. 

 

[DHart]

STO... yes the small technical details are significant when getting down with numbers. What matters most to me in my application is how loud the moderators sound to the human ear, as that’s the “testing device” that my neighbors employ! ;-).

TO my ears, the Huggett sounded as low or slightly lower than the others. So, just for fun I decided to see what the SPL app would measure. And the results pretty closely mirrored what my ear heard. 

Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter what an instrument records if what one is most interested in is what your own hearing (or that of your neighbors) registers. That’s the reason that most shooters use moderators, to reduce the sound that their neighbors might hear - or their prey might hear.

Quantifying moderator suppression has its place, of course, when one needs to convey numerically how one moderator compares to another. But if the human hearing doesn’t coincide with what the testing device measures, how much value is there really to the ultra precise quantitative measurement?

 

[STO]

Quantifying moderator suppression has its place, of course, when one needs to convey numerically how one moderator compares to another. But if the human hearing doesn’t coincide with what the testing device measures, how much value is there really to the ultra precise quantitative measurement?

In a way you're completely correct, ultimately suppression is for the pleasure of the human ear and so that very much does matter. There is a bit of a pickle though: it is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to tell with certainty how loud a given sound profile will be to a specific person's ear. (and each person's ear varies)

So in pursuit of objective truth, I strive to take measurements in a scientific manner. It allows me to definitively say that X is louder or Y is quieter in a consistent and repeatable protocol. It allows me to strip away all the messy human subjectivity and other complex elements which will affect how loud a person will perceive things. Things like different frequencies carrying better across distance, individuals or prey animals being more sensitive to different frequencies (including frequencies your phone filters or your ears can't hear), individual expectation which HEAVILY influences perception, etc. 

Really I guess my point then is that a precise quantitative measurement is the closest thing we have to telling what is louder or quieter to an individual. And it isn't perfect, I think I've put that caveat in almost every post I've made on the subject, but it is the best we have. If you throw that away, precision of measurement, what do you have left and how useful is it really? How would you make further improvements? I argue that the subjective human ear's response is important, but it should only be supplementary to the hard data. So something like X moderator is quieter (empirically measured) and it has a pleasing tone (subjective observation). And you'll see this sort of approach in good science as well, you have your hard data results leading out in front, but some of your subjective observations will pop in here and there. 

My 2c. 

 

[DHart]

STO... please don’t interpret my posts to imply that there isn’t a place for precise aural measurement of moderators, with sophisticated testing equipment. Precision testing and measurement with instruments is all well and good. And it can yield useful information regarding different frequency peaks and such in comparing one moderator to another.

My point is simply that regardless of what precision testing comes up with, the bottom line for someone wanting to reduce how much a neighbor may hear one’s own backyard air rifle shooting is if it sounds quieter to their ears, not so much a testing device. 

How the air rifle sounds to human ears is the ultimate determinant when it comes to sound suppression for the purpose of not bothering neighbors with the sound.

 

[Kaeokini]

Dhart

Really enjoy your discussion and research on these moderators. I too believe that what the human ear can hear (neighbor's next door) is the most important thing to me. I have the donnyfl ronin, sumo, shogun, and tatsu. Also hugget standard (snipe) and depending on which moderator I have on what gun, we can hear the difference. I know my impact .25 with the ronin is the quietest. With my bantam .25 the hugget or shogun are about the same but the shogun looks better on the gun. With my streamline .22 the sumo is the quietest. I know that one of the guys we shoot with has a tatsu on his hatsan flash and when we tried different moderators on it the tatsu sounded the quietest. I think it really comes down to the type of gun and caliber the moderator is trying to suppress. Just my .02

 

[DHart]

Dhart

Really enjoy your discussion and research on these moderators. I too believe that what the human ear can hear (neighbor's next door) is the most important thing to me. I have the donnyfl ronin, sumo, shogun, and tatsu. Also hugget standard (snipe) and depending on which moderator I have on what gun, we can hear the difference. I know my impact .25 with the ronin is the quietest. With my bantam .25 the hugget or shogun are about the same but the shogun looks better on the gun. With my streamline .22 the sumo is the quietest. I know that one of the guys we shoot with has a tatsu on his hatsan flash and when we tried different moderators on it the tatsu sounded the quietest. I think it really comes down to the type of gun and caliber the moderator is trying to suppress. Just my .02

Kaeokini... some good input there and I agree with you. How well a particular moderator performs certainly seems largely dependent on the rifle/caliber it is attached to.

Huggett Standard (Snipe) was quieter (to the ear and to my SPL meter app) than Shogun when on my Bantam Sniper .22. But they switched places when put on my Red Wolf .22HP fired on LOW power. There was not a significant sound difference between them, in either case - they were very close sounding to the ear and not very far apart in dB reading. Very interesting!

 

[Raptor660]

Dhart 

i have a Weirauch moderator on my Weirauch and the only thing you hear is the click of the hammer. It’s only a 177 cal so I can’t speak of noise level on 22 cal and 25cal.

Nice! Which Weihrauch rifle do you have? I'm still looking for what .177 to buy for quiet backyard target use.

Dhart

sorry for the late answer. I have a Weirauch hw 100 k and with a Weirauch moderator it makes no sound at all. And it is a FAC model. But without moderator it’s really loud!

 

[DHart]

Dhart 

i have a Weirauch moderator on my Weirauch and the only thing you hear is the click of the hammer. It’s only a 177 cal so I can’t speak of noise level on 22 cal and 25cal.

Nice! Which Weihrauch rifle do you have? I'm still looking for what .177 to buy for quiet backyard target use.

Dhart

sorry for the late answer. I have a Weirauch hw 100 k and with a Weirauch moderator it makes no sound at all. And it is a FAC model. But without moderator it’s really loud!

Raptor... beautiful looking rifle. And near silent with the Weihrauch moderator - that is really impressive!

 

[Bogview]

An important factor to be aware of in the conversation is how decibels work. It's not linear, but more like exponential. Going from 90db to 100db is ten times louder.

Here's a better explanation.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/question124.htm

 

[DHart]

An important factor to be aware of in the conversation is how decibels work. It's not linear, but more like exponential. Going from 90db to 100db is ten times louder.

Here's a better explanation.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/question124.htm

Yes... small increases in db make a fairly significant difference... though for the human ear to really notice a difference in sound level, it's got to be a fairly significant difference - like probably 3 or 4 db?