How is that not the case now, Bill?How about attending a match to shoot your best with a level a playing field in your class? That is my ultimate end game.
Bill Day
Tim
How is that not the case now, Bill?How about attending a match to shoot your best with a level a playing field in your class? That is my ultimate end game.
Bill Day
Tim, Many of the hunter class have inferior equipment and leveling the field so that we all had a equal chance of shooting well is a good start. Our Nationals have been won in the past by tuned rifles in the $500 range. I feel the biggest concession is the range to the target. If all hunter shooters could decently rangefind the target they are shooting the field would be much more level than as it is now. Whether it is accomplished by increasing the scope power, ability to bracket based on ones ability, or move the Hunter Targets in to around 40 - 45 yards would be another alternative. Like it or not we have a lot of hunter shooters that make up 60 to 70% of our class that could use a step up or maybe we need to take a step down. Maybe even putting them in a different flight would give some of balance. No body seems to care about the guys that show up in their class to shoot with no chance of even placing because it is peppered with talent and high end equipment. The other classes are structured by rules they need to at least get a good read on the target and the distance to it. No quite so for the Hunter Class for many every long shot is a gamble disregarding the wind challenge.How is that not the case now, Bill?
Tim
The inferior equipment argument is not just a hunter phenomenon. The same can be said in all classes.Tim, Many of the hunter class have inferior equipment and leveling the field so that we all had a equal chance of shooting well is a good start. Our Nationals have been won in the past by tuned rifles in the $500 range. I feel the biggest concession is the range to the target. If all hunter shooters could decently rangefind the target they are shooting the field would be much more level than as it is now. Whether it is accomplished by increasing the scope power, ability to bracket based on ones ability, or move the Hunter Targets in to around 40 - 45 yards would be another alternative. Like it or not we have a lot of hunter shooters that make up 60 to 70% of our class that could use a step up or maybe we need to take a step down. Maybe even putting them in a different flight would give some of balance. No body seems to care about the guys that show up in their class to shoot with no chance of even placing because it is peppered with talent and high end equipment. The other classes are structured by rules they need to at least get a good read on the target and the distance to it. No quite so for the Hunter Class for many every long shot is a gamble disregarding the wind challenge.
Bill
Keith, I don't think you have any idea how hard the Hunter class works and the Burning River Club likely has the biggest Hunter attendance in AAFTA right now. Attitudes like yours won't encourage them to stick around either. As far as your participation wards go, well I know where you can put them!Could it also be that most Hunter shooters rarely if ever practice on a consistent basis? The ones that due are the ones that win, regardless if your equipment cost $3500 or $500.
Taking your equipment out the day before a match and shooting 20 shots doesn't really count as working on your game.
So let's dummy up the game and make it so everyone has a equal chance of making the podium...regardless if you practice or not because those 60-70% that don't have a chance of winning are probably the only ones that never pick up their equipment and practice. The more I shoot the better I get.
Perhaps those 60-70% just aren't as driven or competitive as the other people. So upping the.magnification or using rangefinders or shots that aren't as long all your doing is watering down the competition. Might as well hand out the participation awards as well!
Frank, Phil Hepler puts his time in and shoots well and I don't quarry with that. In order to shoot matches and only miss one or two shots something is working for you for sure.We've got a couple Hunter class guys at the 3 clubs I go to that are often high overall score. First one that comes to mind is Kent. His rig is a Daystate Huntsman, pretty sure the bolt action version, not the side lever, and a pretty budget friendly Athlon. I think the Athlon he uses is in the $300 range. So, his rig is what? $1250-1400? For sure not Thomas or Red Wolf or Alpha Wolf money. As for inferior equipment, he is ranging just fine @16x or he wouldn't be able to shoot matches where he only misses one or two shots. Another example is Philip Hepler who won nationals a year or two ago? With a marauder and a UTG scope. I'll repeat, it can be done.
Thanks, I am kind of looking forward to it. I feel some of my ideas that have come to past have allowed more shootes to enjoy Hunter Field Target on a more level playing field. ie give Hunter piston shooters their own class. I suppose you would think that should of never happened either. Hunter class still has improvements a head and will eventually get there or some of them just might start their own class. Would be a sad day for AAFTA if that ever happens. Besides the competition that I have enjoyed I would like to leave Hunter Field target a little better than when I arrived. In some ways my goals have been accomplished. In ending I'll say this "IT IS "Not a good bet to EVER say NEVER"Well Bill perhaps you should start your own Hunter class matches since you know exactly how it should be done. Everyone that has made up these rules obviously didnt know what they were doing. I'm hopeful people on the BOG will do what's.best.for.the.sport not for a few Hunter individuals that think they know it all. Goodluck on your open class participation as well.. looking forward to seeing how you like the.higher magnification scope since that will never change for Hunter class.
Bill,Tim, Many of the hunter class have inferior equipment and leveling the field so that we all had a equal chance of shooting well is a good start. Our Nationals have been won in the past by tuned rifles in the $500 range. I feel the biggest concession is the range to the target. If all hunter shooters could decently rangefind the target they are shooting the field would be much more level than as it is now. Whether it is accomplished by increasing the scope power, ability to bracket based on ones ability, or move the Hunter Targets in to around 40 - 45 yards would be another alternative. Like it or not we have a lot of hunter shooters that make up 60 to 70% of our class that could use a step up or maybe we need to take a step down. Maybe even putting them in a different flight would give some of balance. No body seems to care about the guys that show up in their class to shoot with no chance of even placing because it is peppered with talent and high end equipment. The other classes are structured by rules they need to at least get a good read on the target and the distance to it. No quite so for the Hunter Class for many every long shot is a gamble disregarding the wind challenge.
Bill
100%.........
Let me first say that I enjoy FT and also EFT. I’ll also add that although I know scope ranging is a part of the FT game, it honestly has nothing to do with marksmanship. I’d be totally fine with making “Hunter” truly Hunter like real life hunting Hunter and allowing LRF. If we’re trying to simulate hunting, let’s go big and inject some reality. No more arguments about scope power. Hell, make it a fixed 10x scope, what would it matter if the ranges are known? ....
100%
Ranging by focus isn't applicable anywhere else. And omitting it from field target wouldn't be any great loss. People still wouldn't often shoot perfect scores. Hell, I used a rangefinder and shot in Unlimited last weekend (but from Open position) and still missed a shot, cuz I shanked it. It was big enough and close enough that the range wasn't even kind of a factor, it was obviously 18-22 yards, just to the bare eye, and the kill zone was generous enough that calling it 15-25 would have still put the pellet in there. Having a decent idea of the distance is of course necessary, but no bigger part than figuring out how to be steady from your chosen position, having a handle on where you need to hold to account for any wind, and not making any mental mistakes.
Another pro for ditching the sillyness of rangefinding by focus would be that it'd make it much easier for new folks to get into it. ANY scope would work, as pointed out already.
Knowing the cave man that owns that TM above I think he would have us all shooting sitting from the ground, without sticks, in a big red ant colony. I pretty sure I have nailed 2 of his preferences and the 3rd well, wouldn't surprise me."And with all that I’ve read and studied I cannot for the life of me understand what the hell the ultimate end game is."
These recurring FT debates that devolve into lobbying for this or that particular rule or change are usually driven by those feeling disadvantaged in some way or another; be it equipment, shooting position, or otherwise related. The loudest voices have often tried and failed to remedy their perceived disadvantage, so resort to lobbying for remedy. This often occurs after experiencing a recent (or repeated) butt-kicking(s). So the end game is most always to gain or regain advantage(s); and hard-sold as victimhood.
Consequently I'm occasionally compelled to put this BS into proper perspective by repeating something I've said many times before. "Everyone lobbies for rules that will advantage them, and lobbies against rules that don't/won't."
If it's any consolation, humans are not the only self-serving species. ALL species are. SELF-FIRSTedness has always been a natural fact of life; but usually related to survival and/or prospering... rather than prevailing in a little game.
FWIW, the reigning Hunter Class Texas State FT Champion used a box-stock front-focusing scope, does not employ bracketing (and never will), yet posted the high score of the weekend in not only Hunter Class, but all classes, in the most-contested Republic Of Texas FT Championship in history. Dang guy also shuns shooting aids, accessories, and gadgets like he's ALLERGIC.
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Personally, I think he just got lucky. VERY!