Hunter Division - how to overcome the 16x ranging challenge?

[beerthief]

where is a good link to explain Bracketing in FT scope ranging ? thanks
ok dinner call see y'as (y'as = a local expression up north IL )

 

[Airgunoregon]

Aimright,

One also learns the wind patterns on a course you shoot often... so, it can also be that you don't instinctively read the wind as well at the new venues.

Some barrels like the LW Slow twist Poly provide a better BC for a better trajectory and also show less wind movement than most other barrels. I saw a big change when I switched to a USFT with a slow poly, that Larry Durham built and I bought from him.... and another USFT I changed from an HW to slow poly in a USFT for my shooting partner Randy.... we both saw a big difference in wind hold off and a flatter trajectory. We had a pretty good year in the GP.

In Hunter Class, we are using the Hawke Sidewinders mounted at 2 1/4" center of scope to center of barrel. I'm about 5/8" of a mil (just over the half mil mark) at 55yards and about 1/4 mil at 45. Both marks are in the kill zone at 50 yards. I'm holding about two mills at 10 yards. Randy's barrel isn't as special as the one I got, and his 55 yard is about 1 1/4 mils. Never, Never will I sell that gun...

Like Mike was saying... just hedge your bet ranging from 45 to 55 and focus on reading the wind.

Wayne

 

[Scotchmo]

Yes….I understand how it works.

There is no good reason to ever be off 6yds. If you held at 52y for every target between 48 and 55y you would still have more wind drift leeway at 20 fpe than someone shooting 12fpe with perfect ranging. If you cannot tell the difference between 48y and 55…..don’t ever hold at 48 or 55.

Mike

Mike,
Under the conditions you described, with typical velocities and BCs, they each have about the same wind leeway. If done as you say and hold for 52yds in all cases of estimates between 48yds and 55yds, the 20fpe shooter can do OK. So it can be a good strategy if they don't trust their ranging to be better then +/-3 yds. But the typical dispersion at 55 yards will cause some misses, no matter how well they break the shot.

Even with no wind, 6yds off on a 55yd target is a deal breaker. 5yds might squeak in if shooting a high BC pellet at >900fps.

 

[Martin3528]

What program was used for the graphs?

 

[Aimright]

What program was used for the graphs?

Chairgun

 

[AirNGasman]

"My point is this class is not dictated by equipment any more than by the shooter." Well stated, Okie.

Which is a large part of the reason for Hunter Class in the first place; if not actually the primary reason. And also reason aplenty to leave the 16X limit unmolested.

 

[tjmac]

Way back, when we started hunter division, we saw that allowing scope rangefinding could lead to an equipment race. To prevent that, we did not allow any range markings to be seen or used. All markings are covered. Most just use range estimation by eye and a few bracket. I have never been serious enough to use bracketing.

Tim

 

[cavedweller]

" if the targets are on a cysteine block"
googled this and all i got was cancer treatment ? do you mean the granular cement building blocks ? that is what i see at matches .

Cinder blocks

 

[Martin3528]

Personally, if you wanted to range at 40+ with a yard degree of accuracy, you should move to the unlimited class (if they have one). That's what separates the top from the bottom. If we all could range to one yard easily, then all we would have to judge is the wind. There has to be some kind of difficulty involved.

 

[uscbigdawg]

Keep in mind that the percentage of shots past 45y is likely not where you’re going to give up the match.

 

[Scotchmo]

Keep in mind that the percentage of shots past 45y is likely not where you’re going to give up the match.

At GP matches, 1/3 of the targets are >40yds. That's often where the match is won, especially on a windy day.

 

[Kdog]

I can only speak about the guys I shoot with but Hunter scores here in Ohio are consistently in the mid to high 50's out of a 60 shot match, to win their Hunter PCP class at our local matches. That's with a Troyer rating usually in the 30-33 area. Some of them are older shooters in their 60-70s so it must not be too hard to overcome a 16x range challange.

 

[uscbigdawg]

At GP matches, 1/3 of the targets are >40yds. That's often where the match is won, especially on a windy day.

Touché. Then I’d say since everyone has the same hurdle, go forth.

 

[Cloud9AG]

Learn to bracket using a concrete block of a known size (from Home Depot) that many FT matches use, or bracket on the target hole size for distances greater than 45 yards where AAFTA rules state it must be 1 1/2" or larger.

 

[Scotchmo]

Learn to bracket using a concrete block of a known size (from Home Depot) that many FT matches use, or bracket on the target hole size for distances greater than 45 yards where AAFTA rules state it must be 1 1/2" or larger.

Good advice. You won't always see a block, but if you do, it's a good confirmation and can be simple enough. If you only want to verify your 40yd to 55yd target distances, here is a simple chart for the most common 7.625" wide blocks. It's for FFP MOA reticles:

Count the MOA spaces across the BLOCK that most closely matches the chart. Use the YARD distance for your range from scope to target. If you have a clear sight of the block, and can count half way decently, you'll usually be accurate within two yards.

Once you learn the whole process, blocks are not the only feature that you will be able to use.

 

[dayjd]

Feeling a little maligned lately by some of the recent threads that seem to have promoted the idea that the hunter class shooters that wish for a higher scope magnification allowance might be less than worthy competitors who are unwilling to overcome their 16x ranging challenges. I am a newish hunter competitor, been attending matches for about two+ years, and probably have competed 30+ regular ft matches on 4 different courses, and also have shot at few XFT matches. I usually score in the middle of the pack with an occasional top 3 finish at my home club range.

The 16x ranging limit has been a frustration of FT competitions since my very first meet a few years ago. I have tried to overcome the challenge by several methods - more practice, being consistent with ranging technique each time, bracketing where I can, tuning for flatter trajectories, purchasing a more accurate rifle and getting a slightly better scope. All of these have helped to some extent, but I will say bottom line is that from 45-55 yards at any venue other than my home club range I will most always have ranging errors that will prevent my pellet from giving me that ever blissful target knockdown.

Many of the hunter competitors in my club have addressed the challenge by going to the high dollar scopes - Kahles and Sightrons. I have tried their scopes and yes the do a better job at ranging than my Athlon - they too have ranging errors past 45, but typically about half the error of my Athlon from what I can determine.

So I still greatly enjoy hunter division FT, and have no plans to discontinue, or whine and moan (much) about the 16x limit, but I really don’t see a way to fully overcome that challenge other than going deeper into the arms race or finding that holy grail reasonably priced scope that ranges exceptionally at 16x.

So very true what you are trying to convey, Most of us Hunter shooters that have pretty much been their from the beginning understand your frustration.
The thing for me that is hard to grasp is we are shooting against our own class like all the other classes are suppose to be.. Most of the other classes do not want the Hunter class to rise any higher in scope power than we have now. It seems they are threaten by us older bucket and bipod dudes. Even on 16x some do pretty well keeping up with them but it requires a lot more practice than some of the other classes have to put in. Some years ago I heard about this thing called bracketing. Which requires a very steady aim to consistently bracket the block the target is sitting on or any other place on the target. Some talk about bracketing the KZ. I say if I could do it off a benchrest I might be able to come up on a good number but there are many obsticles in bracketing. You need to guess the size of the KZ accuately and hold the rifle so still while trying to see a left and right mildot at the same time for a good reference with movement of the scope reticle at the distance you are aiming at. A 55 yard target can be 5 different sizes from 1 1/2" to 2". Off my bucket and bipod it is very hard to lock down a true distance from 50 to 55 yards. Even with very little movement it is easy to be off 3 to 5 yards which more likely than not can end up being a miss. The Hunter shooters with the lower to mid range scope could range find through the art of bracketing when they pretty much know they will never own a big scope that will rangefind like some of the top shooters in their class. Again as it has been pointed out even the scopes with the bigger objective and better glass still have issues at 45 to 55 yards on 16X and that is totally true.

The game is to knock down as many targets with the equipment you are allowed. All classes could utilize bracketing not just hunter but on dark lanes when the big glass gets tricky in this situation they might be able to come up with a better range number thru the use of this archaic method. Presently, there are no rules against bracketing but when the method became known a few years back the match directors started angleing the targets to make it difficult to accurately bracket. So the Hunter class gets beat down again with this witchery. Do you wonder why I feel like the Hunter class has always been restrained in this game or not treated as fairly as the other classes. This is a typical example that could help many hunter shooters with low end equipment be a little more competitive in our game. Knock down more targets and make the game more fun. EVERYONE could benefit from it but, there are those match directors even in our hunter class that get there rocks off by trying to make it more difficult for their opponents and brothers in the Hunter Class.

So bottom line the Hunter class will never see the targets like the Open and WFTF do unless we are allowed to use better glass. That is a fact we must deal with. Remember, we are only shooting against our own class.

 

[Franklink]

.......

So bottom line the Hunter class will never see the targets like the Open and WFTF do unless we are allowed to use better glass. That is a fact we must deal with. Remember, we are only shooting against our own class.

There's some holes in your logic there.

If you are truly only competing against your class than why does it matter what scope magnification the other classes are using? Everybody in your class is using 16x.

As for your assessment that Hunter class has always been persecuted and "not treated as fairly as the other classes" Why should Hunter get to use what the other classes are using when Hunter isn't the other classes? Let's reverse the logic and say Open class should get to use bipods (and retain their other equipment allowances) because Hunter class gets to use bipods. Open has been so persecuted because we're not allowed bipods. All we're asking for is to get to use what Hunter class uses. All those dirty nasty match directors and AAFTA board members just have it out for us poor Open class shooters.

The simple truth here is that nobody is telling you you're not allowed to use a higher magnification, just that you'll need to shoot in the class where that is allowed.

I started in Hunter Piston when it was 12x. Then went to Hunter PCP when it was still 12x. I won some monthly matches but got frustrated with missing a few shots per match due to ranging by focus errors. Simple enough quandary I was in, it's against the rules to use more magnification scope in Hunter so I moved to Open class where higher magnification is allowed. Any one else can do the same.

 

[Mg616]

For me it is the close in off hand / kneeling targets that put the most 0's on my card. Tried practicing on small gumballs around the yard, damn things are hard to hit kneeling at 10 - 15'.

This from a veteran of 1.5 HFT matches in the last year, hope to do more when my schedule cooperates.

 

[davecole]

I have read and tried to follow the flurry of threads and hundreds of posts around FT rules, potential rule changes and trying to interpret why who shoots what and this and/or that will bring more shooter to the lanes or back into the lanes and on and on and on.
And with all that I’ve read and studied I cannot for the life of me understand what the hell the ultimate end game is.
Is it to shoot a clean card?
Is it to achieve a higher score?
Is it to have a bunch of shooters tied at the end of a match and have a string of shoot-offs?
Is it to design a course to compensate for the shooters’ lack of abilities or their choices in equipment?

To the point of this thread, if the rule on scope magnification is upped from 16x to say 24x shooters may feel compelled (especially if they lose to one) the need to purchase a more powerful, expensive scope wether they actually need it or not. Will existing shooters bail on the sport because it now requires even more investment? “Good” scopes aren’t cheap, particularly when greater clarity in higher magnification in required. Don’t we need to keep what shooters we have?

I think the increase in magnification concept is counterproductive.

If you just gotta have more KZ smacks let’s work on and come up with something that cost everyone nothing.

Make some of the KZ’s beyond (say) 40 yards more generous. And if necessary to keep the Troyer scale balanced make the KZ’s smaller from 10-25 yards. It’s might be a subliminal thing but not knocking down near target with small KZ’s isn’t as frustrating as not knocking down far targets with larger KZ’s.

Just for funzies, (I know this was done at a fun shoot somewhere) post the distance to the KZ. Better yet, new shooters maybe get that information for their eyes only. You might see a tic up in scores but a clean lane is an improbability. For those of you who are not familiar with (I think most of you are) or have not shot XFT before, the distance to the target is a known factor.
With only one exception that I’m aware of (my man DW) no one has shot a clean card in XFT.
Now if knowing the distance to target was ultimately a factor in scores one would have to believe there would be more clean cards in XFT.
At the end of the day, there isn’t just one or maybe two things that are keeping shooters from knocking down more faceplates. And one of them, I don’t believe, is scope magnification. Remember, you up the power on your scope so will the guy shooting next to you so now you are both equal again.
So all of you that are much smarter than me and more worldly than me in FT come up with thoughtful solutions that help grow the sport while maintaining the population of shooters without an additional cost burden.

 

[dayjd]

I somewhat agree with your summation. Around 2008 in West Field, Mass they held a shoot that to the best of my memory painted all the targets white and gave the distance to all the shooters. No one cleaned the match or even came close. The average shooters did better but not too much changed from that. As a former match director I setup and shot my own shoots. Most of the serious FT shooters traveled from Mass, CT, NH, and NY to attend our shoots in Maine. I always felt uncomfortable about shooting my own course because I definately had an advantage that I wished I didn't have. One of the shoots I held I posted the distances to the target and told anyone at the safety meeting they were welcome to check the distance out before or after the shot it was up to them. As far as I know nobody took me up on that offer. Again do the ones setting up the match have a "edge" I personally think so but bottom line they still have to make the shots in the same conditions as everyone else, and Never come close to cleaning my own course. You mention that if higher power scopes were allowed you think it would be another equipment race. Most of the top shooters already own the scope they would likely use because right now they are turned down. The ones that don't have them likely can't afford them anyway so not much would change for them. The purpose of my comments on Bracketing was to convey that there is other alternatives to level the playing field for all and allow improvement in scores without breaking the bank or making it harder.
Shootoffs do take a little extra time but some enjoy them and there are other ways to determine the winner other than a shoot off.

How about attending a match to shoot your best with a level a playing field in your class? That is my ultimate end game.
Bill Day