Hunter FT rules

[Centercut]

I have a question about Hunter FT rules, concerning positions and equipment.

In prone position, if my gun is resting on a short bipod not physically attached to the gun, can the butt be resting on my hand which is on the ground? I am not supporting the gun directly on the ground in any way.

I think the rule is that the gun cannot be directly supported by the ground...not sure the actual meaning, since you could be sitting with your leg touching the ground and the gun resting on your leg, and that seems fine. I’ve been told yes, no, and I don’t know. Strictly reading the rules it would appear it’s allowed, but I’m not yet into FT so I’d like to hear some experienced shooters chime in? Thanks.

Mike

 

[davecole]

In the years I’ve shot HFT, I’ve not seen a prone shooting lane at a match. I couldn’t find it in the AAFTA rule book either. Got a link?

 

[steve123]

I'd like to know what the official ruling is too.

Years ago I was told no I can't support from my hand which was touching the ground. So being right handed I would support the bottom of the butt of the stock with my left arm crossed over and grabbing my right bicep. 

It was pissing me off to have to support the rifle that way, and well I always thought not using an attached bipod was just as silly. Also invariably being so close to the ground I'd end up clipping a blade of grass or two and losing 1st place by a point or two, lol. I got old as well so it's not as easy on the neck or the bod getting up and down off the ground all the time.

 

[Centercut]

In the years I’ve shot HFT, I’ve not seen a prone shooting lane at a match. I couldn’t find it in the AAFTA rule book either. Got a link?

I think now I’m even more confused. If the lane position is not specifically designated, what days that you can’t use prone whenever you want, if you have an unobstructed line to the target?

 

[Bob-in-WV]

Prone positions allowed in all the lanes except the kneeling and standing lanes. I have seen several people shooting that way in some of the bigger matches. I am too old and fat to shoot like that.

 

[Exitpupil]

You can shoot prone if you choose if the lane is not designated a forced position. I am in my 6th season shooting FT. My first season I shot prone with an attached bi-pod because it was popular with the club I joined and their range was set up to be able to shoot prone so that is what I learned. Toward the end that season prone was being discouraged by a vocal few in the game across the country and a lot of drama ensued including the "detached" bi-pod rule the next season. When I went to nationals (my first non home course match) I discovered 20% of the targets were not shootable from prone due to target visibility or the shooting box would not accommodate that position. At that point I decided that if I wanted to win I must develop a position that would allow me the best opportunity to succeed at all courses in all conditions and I moved to an orthodox sitting position on a bum bag. No prone or dead man positions for me. The change required building a new position and lots of practice but elevated my performance and I enjoy the game very much. Other considerations concerning prone in my part of the country are mud and chiggers!

 

[AirNGasman]

I recall the Hunter Class bipod debate vividly, being heavily involved as I was. In the end, the debate was put to rest with the rules revision disallowing bipods affixed to the rifle. Interestingly, I believe that revision was decided by an AAFTA Board of Governors that included no Hunter Class shooters. Though that ended the controversy, a few Hunters dropped out of field target because of it.

Years before, the same thing happened when there was a rules revision regarding scopes. Then again years later with another scope-related revision. 

"You can't please all the people all the time." That being Reality, about the best you can hope for is to please most of the people most of the time.

 

[Centercut]

Thanks. I’m totally cool with non attached bipods. What I’m trying to determine is if I can rest the butt of the gun on my hand which is on the ground. And if not, how is this different from resting the gun on your leg, which is on the ground? The rules are kinda ambiguous on this topic. I’m getting into FT and want to know the actual written rules, not “well that’s the way we’ve always done it”, and not supposition and conjecture. Just the rules Ma’am, just the rules please...

 

[Scotchmo]

Thanks. I’m totally cool with non attached bipods. What I’m trying to determine is if I can rest the butt of the gun on my hand which is on the ground. And if not, how is this different from resting the gun on your leg, which is on the ground? The rules are kinda ambiguous on this topic. I’m getting into FT and want to know the actual written rules, not “well that’s the way we’ve always done it”, and not supposition and conjecture. Just the rules Ma’am, just the rules please...

From the AAFTA rules:

"...Any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground...."

Ambiguous and probably intentionally so. That rule was added in 2014 with the hopes that it could be used to hamper prone shooters. I was one of the prone shooters at that time. There were quite a few prone shooters in Hunter Division at the 2013 AAFTA Nationals. There were a number of rules changes that were slipped in to thwart prone shooters in that time frame. Many people think it was the 2015 club majority rule outlawing attached bipods that doomed the prone position in AAFTA Hunter Division, but it was actually an accumulation of several rules during that period.

In real HFT (not AAFTA Hunter Division), prone is the most used shooting position.

Even after that ambiguous rule, I used the prone position for a while. Most adapted to that rule fairly easily. You can flex your wrist upward to clear the ground while supporting the butt of the gun. There was a 15" rule originally added for prone shooters but it was removed in 2014. That allowed match directors to further thwart the prone position by obscuring targets for low positions. In the last rule changes, they reinstated the target visibility rule, though match directors don't always follow it so best to have an optional position for those targets.

 

[Centercut]

Good explanation, thanks. Agree very ambiguous rule. Fingers are a part of the body, so if the back of the hand was on the ground but the butt was held in the fingers...? I’m trying to reconcile how you can sit cross legged with the outside of your leg touching the ground and the gun resting on the inside of your leg, that appears to be perfectly fine, but in actuality is in direct violation of that same rule? If AAFTA doesn’t want prone why not just grow a pair and say so? 

 

[gonzav71]

AAFTA will allow prone with sling only and no bipod attached although many courses don't physically make it possible to shoot prone with many obstructions. Prone with a bipod attached with your supporting hand under the butt end is not allowed since you are basically having the ground support your rifle. I understand AAFTA's reasoning but they should just make an Unlimited or Freestyle class for that kind of shooting.

 

[Centercut]

I see your point. Perhaps I wasn’t clear? I have no problems with a short bipod say 6 to 10 inches tall NOT attached to the gun which is specifically allowed in AAFTA Hunter Class. It’s the “supported by the ground” ambiguity that seems well, downright silly.

The rules state “Any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground…“. That’s truly hard to define wouldn’t you say? So I gather it’s OK for the leg to support the gun, even though it directly supports the gun and is resting on the ground? That’s ok, but the hand is not? How is one different from the other? It appears the AAFTA have twisted themselves into silliness and ambiguity trying to skirt the issue of prone position, yet they lack the moral integrity to plainly ban prone as obviously is their intent. Politics are everywhere...

 

[thomasair]

Hi Mike, if you sit Indian style you will see that your left foot will be in contact with the ground, and your right knee will be on top of your left foot...then the butt of the rifle will be on the right knee. Not direct.


I suppose if you put your left fist on the ground and put some of your right hand fingers under the grip on top of your left fist...you would no longer be direct. 


But again...i shoot at 18” off the ground and run into a lot of targets throughout the year that I cannot see. If you are the minority of the group...you will just hear something like “Nobody else had a problem with it”.

If you try prone...you will probably be way lower than 18”...so you should be prepared.


Mike 

 

[Centercut]

Mike, I wasn’t specifically pointing at you. I’ve seen photos of FT with the gun (with hamster) resting on a leg which was on the ground.

My intention is not to shoot the entire match prone, but to reserve that option for targets that are best shot prone. Your position results in a perfectly still hold even better that bucket and sticks, and that’s great, but few of us can do that... note the jealousy here...

I also wanted to point out the silliness of some rules made to effectively stifle prone, without having the cojones to just ban prone which is obviously the intent of the AAFTA. Would it be that hard to just say you can’t rest the butt of the gun on your arm, hand or fingers? Currently by the letter of the law, if I have my hand on the ground but am holding the butt in my fingers, I am within the rules. 

 

[thomasair]

There are lots of guys that have been shooting FT for a very long time....like 25 years or more. They remember the sport when it was young and the rules were being developed. They look down on guys that shoot particular ways because they believe it was not in the spirit of the rules decades ago. They may be right....but the rules are the rules. I’ve been shooting for 4 years now, and everything I do was based on shooting by the current rules. I developed my position and my gun/pistol to follow the rules....because there was no handbook available to explain to me the 30 year old spirit of the game. There has been plenty of time to make clear rules for newcomers to follow if the real spirit was actually intended to be different from the current rules.

The reality is that the best you can do is just follow the current rules and if you have a question about your chosen style you should submit it to the AAFTA board of governors for review so you can get the final word from the top.


Mike 

 

[steve123]

I'm not arguing either way but If you think about it - shooting coats, harnesses, slings, bum bags, sticks, or anything else used to make a more comfortable and steady position, or make a "FIELD" target rifle "more shootable", like 2oz triggers, 50x scopes, etc, are going against the original spirit of the game.

After winning 6 state matches in FT Open, at some point I got tired of all the politics and rules (Lol, I've probably spent a couple thousand in entry fees over the years, to show for it I won $30 worth of pins or plaques, LOL!!!) and said to myself, yuh know, I'm just doing this for fun anyway so I'm going to do whatever I want to do. Non compete if you will, only against myself, I guess I was the first Freestyle shooter, don't know??? because I showed up one day with my Mil/Mil FFP S&B 5-25/H59 reticle, on top of my Daystate Panther, an attached bipod, used my TAB gear rear bag under the butt of the rifle, and ranged targets via the .2 mil hashes in the reticle and using the formula in the ballistic app on my phone. It was the most fun I had had shooting at FT targets in many years. Been hooked shooting Freestyle ever since.

I have no plans of going to the FT nationals, or doing much travel, but if I do I'll just pay my entry fee, and accept that my score won't count, that's fine with me at this point in my life. I don't need to win, I just need to have fun, which means using my tripod, laser range finder, """and enjoying the company of my friends.""" 

Anywho - 

 

[Exitpupil]

But again...i shoot at 18” off the ground and run into a lot of targets throughout the year that I cannot see. If you are the minority of the group...you will just hear something like “Nobody else had a problem with it”.

Mike 

Mike,

That is exactly why I use the position I use. I have nothing against any of the positions. As a matter of fact I envy your position not needing a hot jacket to be competitive. Even with my high sitting position on multiple occasions I have had to resort to kneeling to have a clear view of the KZ. I knocked the targets down from kneeling only to have them awarded to "everyone" at the end of the match. I am not going to sweat it over a BB gun match LOL.

 

[thomasair]

Will...I’m told that the world events set their targets so they can be seen from any position...not just the most popular. They view the game as a test of wind reading skill, and they put effort into not handicapping any particular shooting position. I went to a match a few years ago where the course setters actually piled branches and sticks in front of many of the, otherwise clear, shooting boxes to force low position shooters to shoot from a different position. They purposely took time to do this. Most of the time it happens due to a lack of attention by the course setters.

Im a lot more attentive to the target positions before I sit down now...if it looks like I may have trouble I will put my coat on and sit on a bag. I used to expect that the match directors followed the rules and set a legal course and would often sit down only to find out that I couldn’t see stuff after I had run my clock down.


Mike 

 

[Scotchmo]

Photos from a few years ago:

I had shot this way for a couple of matches but the first major match that I attended, a match director said that was not allowed. That was before the rule existed. The next year, the rule was put in the handbook.

This is what I ended up doing in most cases. Gun resting on hand, hand not resting on ground. In reality, it's an honor system since an observer would need to be in your space in order to even see an infraction.

You can do it, but almost no one shoots prone in Hunter Division anymore. Carry a bucket and sticks for some of the problem targets. These days I prefer to sit directly on the ground, but also carry a high seat that I find useful for the problem targets. I also carry a bipod (un-attached of course) should the need arise.

 

[tjmac]

The WFTF rule is more clear. I do believe the rule with respect to the arm is for both arms. Your hands hold the gun, butt is on your shoulder. Nothing below the elbow can touch the ground, so a fist on the ground would certainly be illegal.

Maybe adopting a version of this rule would make things clearer.

PRONE – (which may be used in the “Freestyle” lane the Shooter lays face down. The shooter’s forearm, from elbow to fingertips must be clear of any artificial or natural support. However, a sling as described in rule may be in contact with the shooter’s forearm in order to help steady their arm.

Tim