Hunter FT rules

[Centercut]

Thanks much Scott. I just want the option of shooting that way if it seems best, like longer shots with small KZ. But mostly for now will be bucket and sticks. Will try sitting on ground with gun on my knee, but hopefully that won't be against the rules...

 

[Greg5850]

It appears the AAFTA have twisted themselves into silliness and ambiguity trying to skirt the issue of prone position, yet they lack the moral integrity to plainly ban prone as obviously is their intent. Politics are everywhere...

I recommend contacting AAFTA directly with your concern.

BOG@ AAFTA.org


Greg Sauve

 

[Centercut]

Thanks Greg, will do. Lets see if we get a response that actually defines what the rule really means, since as of now I could ask 10 different FT shooters and get 10 different answers...

Mike

 

[Scotchmo]

The WFTF rule is more clear. I do believe the rule with respect to the arm is for both arms. Your hands hold the gun, butt is on your shoulder. Nothing below the elbow can touch the ground, so a fist on the ground would certainly be illegal.

Maybe adopting a version of this rule would make things clearer.

PRONE – (which may be used in the “Freestyle” lane the Shooter lays face down. The shooter’s forearm, from elbow to fingertips must be clear of any artificial or natural support. However, a sling as described in rule may be in contact with the shooter’s forearm in order to help steady their arm.

Tim

WFTF does not allow bipods and their description assumes no bipod. AAFTA Hunter Division allows bipods. AAFTA rules allow the use of any legal equipment in free position lanes. And in this case, the OP is talking about shooting prone with a bipod.

 

[Scotchmo]

Thanks Greg, will do. Lets see if we get a response that actually defines what the rule really means, since as of now I could ask 10 different FT shooters and get 10 different answers...

Mike

I speak from experience having shot that way for two years (2013 and 2014). It was accepted back then, and that particular rule has not changed since then. What about the others that you asked? What other answers were you given?

 

[Centercut]

Scott thanks. I understood your explanation, and believe you. The answer I’m not getting is the “part of the Body” in the rules. Here s the email I sent to AAFTA.

Sirs, I am new to FT, but not new to airgun shooting or competition. I have run across a rule that seems ambiguous at best, and one that no seasoned FT shooter can actually explain, and I've asked plenty.

From the AAFTA rules:

"…Any part of the body directly supporting the gun may not rest on the ground…."

So I'm trying to figure out for Prone Position, (or any position for that matter) what does part of the body mean?

 If I say hand, does that mean hand and fingers, if I say leg, does that include the foot? Basically how far does the rule drill down to body parts?

 If I used a non attached bipod on the front of the gun, and in a prone position rested the gun on my left wrist, while holding my right arm with my left and, and only my left elbow (and right elbow) touching the ground, and not my wrist, would that be OK? 

Or if I had the butt of the gun stock in my left fingers, but the heel of my left hand was touching the ground, is that fine since my fingers are supporting the gun and not the heel of my left hand?

I'd appreciate it if you could clarify this ambiguous rule please? Thank you,

r/

Mike

 

[Therealld]

You might want to shoot at least one match before worrying about rule interpretations?

 

[Centercut]

. I might. Or, here’s a novel idea. As with most new games, you familiarize yourself with the rules of the game before you play? A little common sense goes a long way...

FYI., it should go without saying, but a well written rule doesn’t require “interpretation”...

 

[rich177]

Issues like this one are resolved at club level matches by the match director. I am a match director and would allow prone shooting with non attached bipod in the Hunter Division at our match which follows AAFTA rules(more than most clubs actually do!) , however ( there's always an however) we have not had anyone shoot from the prone position since we started running FT at Falls Twsp. so we do not set our targets to accommodate prone shooting. All that means is that the shooter MAY not be able to get a clear shot at every target from that position. I only ever had one guy shoot from prone and that was at Delran and he shot in the open class. Unforunately he has left the range but is well remembered.

So unless you are shooting in the national match here in the US contact the specific club you plan on shooting at and get a decision. If you come to Falls ( in Pennsylvainia) you have your decision.

Rick Bassett

PS We generally allow everyone to shoot no matter unless they are unsafe or damage targets however they must follow AAFTA rules to shoot in AAFTA classes. We don't want to turn people away that want to shoot.

 

[Centercut]

Thanks Rick. I grew up in Lancaster, PA. 

 

[tjmac]

Maybe adopting a version of this rule would make things clearer.

PRONE – (which may be used in the “Freestyle” lane the Shooter lays face down. The shooter’s forearm, from elbow to fingertips must be clear of any artificial or natural support. However, a sling as described in rule may be in contact with the shooter’s forearm in order to help steady their arm.

Tim

WFTF does not allow bipods and their description assumes no bipod. AAFTA Hunter Division allows bipods. AAFTA rules allow the use of any legal equipment in free position lanes. And in this case, the OP is talking about shooting prone with a bipod.

That is why I said a version of this rule. It would be pretty simple to add an unattached bipod to this rule.

 

[RonnieD]

If you are not going to use a seat and sticks why bother to shoot in the hunter division. Get a powerful scope and roll around all you want. Speaking for myself I shoot hunter because of my inability to gracefully get up off the ground 20 or 30 times in an hour or two. I help to set up the course for the cagc and I can tell you we do not lie down on the ground to see if targets can be seen. You can read the rules to baseball or golf all you want, but until you get out and play you don’t have a clue. Give the game a chance

 

[davecole]

So.....

is prone a supposed advantage over sticks and stool?

If so, I’m willing to get on the ground and roll around with the best of you and the insects that inhabit the area if it improves my score.

However, I don’t wobble or wiggle with the sticks adjusted correctly so I can rest my elbows on my knees.

I can honestly say In all my HFT participation’s from local to GP to Nationals I’ve never seen it done. And if I did, I’d have to snicker and post your picture on airgun social media....

 

[Centercut]

Deal. In fact, I’ll save you the trouble and post it myself. Maybe I’m not practiced enough with bucket and sticks. But prone I can shoot the same scores at 50 and 100 yards as I can from a cement bench with a heavy rest. 

 

[GLPalinkas]

Deal. In fact, I’ll save you the trouble and post it myself. Maybe I’m not practiced enough with bucket and sticks. But prone I can shoot the same scores at 50 and 100 yards as I can from a cement bench with a heavy rest.

Ah, we will see Centercut. It's not as easy as it seems. I'm glad you are asking questions because that means you are really interested in FT. I hope you can find a club near you, as has been suggested, and get out to a match. Great people who are willing to help. Much like your BR crowd. 

Best,

Gary
Venice, FL

 

[Centercut]

Thanks. I never meant to imply it was easy.  Nothing within a 3 hour drive of San Diego. 

 

[Scotchmo]

...
I can honestly say In all my HFT participation’s from local to GP to Nationals I’ve never seen it done. And if I did, I’d have to snicker and post your picture on airgun social media....

That may be true today, but if you had been shooting GP and National matches prior to 2015, you might have seen different. There were often one or more prone shooters in Hunter Division. I think there were 5 prone shooters in the top 10 of Hunter Division at the 2013 Nationals. I remember the 2011, 2012, 2013 National Hunter Division champs were shooters that often used the prone position.

Here are a couple pictures I found from the 2014 NRFTC:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-2014-nerftcs

https://www.crosman.com/connect/photo-galleries/competition/

 

[steve123]

Yes, shooting off a bipod from the ground in prone position provides a more steady position. Especially with an attached bipod, I know this from winning high level centerfire tactical and field course matches doing so. There's no way in the world I would have done that with sticks and a bucket, lol. An unattached bipod can be made almost as steady. All you need to do is rig something on your gun and/or bipod that holds the gun securely but drops when the rifle is lifted. 

Next most steady is using a tripod while sitting on a bucket. I know this from experience.

Next is using sticks like used in hunter, though I think some open shooters are equally as steady in their interesting indian style position.

The problem is being able to engage all the targets when you are down that low in prone, the getting up and down off the ground every time, the kinked necks, the bugs and thorns, clipping grass and leaves, etc. 

 

[Exitpupil]

My course has a tree target that is definitely not shootable from prone and most shooters with sticks will end up sitting on the ground sans bucket. Having shot FT from prone with a bipod, bucket with a bipod, WFTF, and open with a harness IMO all the positions can be trained to be competitively stable. This evidenced by the top scores in all classes at major GPs and nationals are all closely aligned and usually in the upper 50's out of a possible 60. That includes PCP and Piston as well. Will a beginner shoot better from prone with a bipod vs other positions? Yes, but stability can be learned in the other positions. "ain't practice fun?".

 

[Motorhead]

Pending what type of terrain shot ... by in large PRONE is pretty much a flat ground to target position unless ground features allow tilted body positions too.

If shooting at established gun ranges your flat and good to go ... use a Big matt to stay out of the ground debris.

Try this in the country, with uphill / downhill, small shooter boxes, thorns & stickers, chiggers and no see ums ..... you'll change up your shooting style real quick !!



Been there, done that and speak from doing and others doing the same ... No Longer doing it !!



Have FUN .. that's the game you will learn soon enough.



Scott S