HW/Weihrauch HW30 Vortek Tuning Question

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maxtrouble

maxtrouble

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Feb 24, 2018
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Taylor Michigan USA
I left my HW30 cocked and loaded for about three months. Speed was down to 530 when I ran it over the chronograph. I had a Vortek Steel kit PG4 for the rifle and installed it this weekend with the VAC seal. No issues with the install, everything went smoothly.

I ran it across the chronograph with H&N FTT 8.64's and was only able to get 580 fps for about 6.5 fpe. Vortek's website says the kit is good for 7 to 9.5 fpe with the VAC seal installed.

I cleaned the inside out and used a small amount of the grease included with the kit. I applied a small amount on the outside of the VAC seal and spring as instructed. Was a simple install with no drama. However it is slower than I expected.

Any recommendations on how to get it a bit hotter? What did I do wrong for it to be so slow? I have shot about a hundred pellets through it and no changes to velocity.

I am wondering what tuning secret I am missing.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Hey Ron,
If you know, what is the spring diameter / number of coils used in the vortek kit in your HW30S tunes?

I may buy a couple of seals from Vortek (having never used them before) and get a few springs while I’m at it.

Thanks ……
Very impressed with how much time you spend helping others on the AGN & GTA :cool:.
 
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SpiralGroove said:
If you know, what is the spring diameter / number of coils used in the vortek kit in your HW30S tunes?
Click to expand...
That's proprietary information 🤣
0.730"
0113" wire
21 coils in my PG kits. A home roll will have more room without the extra PG parts so I'd start with 22 coils with closed ends.
 
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SpiralGroove said:
Hey Ron,
If you know, what is the spring diameter / number of coils used in the vortek kit in your HW30S tunes?

I may buy a couple of seals from Vortek (having never used them before) and get a few springs while I’m at it.

Thanks ……
Very impressed with how much time you spend helping others on the AGN & GTA :cool:.
Click to expand...
You'll like the seals. They go in super tight but fit themselves in a couple hundred shots. Depending on swept volume and caliber, you'll usually pick up 20-40 fps over most seals. And they usually survive a dry fire where the factory seals usually rupture.
 
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Mycapt65 said:
I wouldn't cut a guide for it until you had the spring in hand. But I'm sure you know that
Click to expand...
Yes, just ordered 5 piston seals for all Wiehrauch models and .113, .118 & .120 springs for HW30S & HW50S.

I have a number of OEM spring guides which can be reduced to fit various springs.
I can make a custom guide from delrin if necessary, but they’re time consuming to make (a pain). Top Hats will be made as needed.
Thanks 👌.
 
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Star7 said:
My R7 has done 7.1-6.5fpe for about 15yrs now. I don't think that I have ever seen 9.5fpe out of a HW30/R7.

but I'm delighted to be proved wrong
Click to expand...
You would be delighted to have proven it possible 🙂 …. then horrified the shot cycle was so wretched 👻 -> then reduce to to 6.5 - 7.5 range ✌️.
 
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Star7 said:
YES!!
but it would be fun

the R7/HW30 runs just about where it should
Click to expand...
Yeah, you need to learn different platform ranges of performance if you tune airguns for different folks who don’t know what they want or need.

However, what happens .…. is ultimately airguns MAXED OUT FOR POWER are unpleasant to shoot and hinder accuracy.

-> In PCP’s MAXED POWER is very inefficient 😳.

Then again, I am pressed to find a way to explain how going 150 MPH is not a good idea to my 19 year old driving his Mustang 🤷🏻‍♂️.
The answer I keep getting is …. but it’s fun.
 
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Star7 said:
My R7 has done 7.1-6.5fpe for about 15yrs now. I don't think that I have ever seen 9.5fpe out of a HW30/R7.

but I'm delighted to be proved wrong
Click to expand...
Believe it or not, it might be possible with a perfect comp tube and a good 20 or 22barrel. My wife's 177 Hw30 is an aberration it makes 9 fpe with 7.33s. It's quite pleasant to shoot and is probably the most accurate Hw30 in the house. It's an absolute fluke. It must have a perfect comp tube and very efficient barrel. A larger caliber on paper should be more efficient and make more power but I think 9fpe out of an Hw30 of any caliber would be about max.


Fwiw I've done dozens of similar tunes and they usually run a little over 8fpe initially. After a couple thousand shots, they settle at 8fpe for a long time. This is all running clean. Meaning there's no detectable dieseling. It's easy to get power by adding dieseling. It's sometimes why you see inexperienced "tuners" making crazy power. It just doesn't last long. Excessive dieseling is tough on seals and springs.

Also I never bought into the less power is more accurate. I just shot one of my best 25 yard groups with my 20 cal 98. It's running a full 16fpe. My 177 95 still runs close to 15 fpe and you'd be hard pressed to find a more accurate break barrel at 50 yards. It occasionally bests my 97 which runs about 13.8-14 depending on pellet. None of them are unpleasant to shoot. Just a nice quick clean pop. Cutting power doesn't increase a guns potential accuracy. It only seems like that because it makes them easier to shoot accurately. I know it sounds like semantics but a good shooter will shoot a proper full power rifle as well as the same rifle at lower power.

My R1 is just as accurate at 20 fpe as it is at 16. It's just harder to shoot accurately at 20. The additional cocking effort and required concentration makes it less pleasant to shoot at 20 but that's on me. Not the rifle.
 
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Yes, we’re talking hold sensitivity … in determining accuracy and excess recoil instead of balanced recoil for harshness.

-> My HW 80S ARH spring - 2 coils clipped (20 cal) 19+ FPE and my most accurate gun. It’s tooth rattling harsh, but I don’t miss “anything“ with that gun - it’s an anomaly. Because it has peerless accuracy for a springer - I will not touch its tune.
Perfect compression chamber and barrel 🌈.

- HW30S @ 9 FPE shooting smoothly - a rare gem 🚀.
 
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I also discovered that the Vortek seals require some time to produce their final velocity. In my case my HW 55 went from an initial velocity of around 620 fps to 680 fps with RWS 8.2 after shooting several tins of pellets. I was warned by Tom at Vortek that this would happen, but of course didn’t listen. His recommendation was to size the seal until the piston dropped down the bore under its own weight.

I think this is more of a problem with lower powered guns where seal drag is a bigger factor on a percentage basis.
Chuck
 
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maxtrouble said:
I left my HW30 cocked and loaded for about three months. Speed was down to 530 when I ran it over the chronograph. I had a Vortek Steel kit PG4 for the rifle and installed it this weekend with the VAC seal. No issues with the install, everything went smoothly.

I ran it across the chronograph with H&N FTT 8.64's and was only able to get 580 fps for about 6.5 fpe. Vortek's website says the kit is good for 7 to 9.5 fpe with the VAC seal installed.

I cleaned the inside out and used a small amount of the grease included with the kit. I applied a small amount on the outside of the VAC seal and spring as instructed. Was a simple install with no drama. However it is slower than I expected.

Any recommendations on how to get it a bit hotter? What did I do wrong for it to be so slow? I have shot about a hundred pellets through it and no changes to velocity.

I am wondering what tuning secret I am missing.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
530fps with H&N FTT 8.64s = 5.4fpe. Indeed too low, but I have found that H&N FTTs are always down on power relative to JSBs because they are a tight fit into the breech. The delta can be 1fpe or more versus JSB or AA pellets. I have three R7/hw30s, all with ARH kits and Vortek seals, and they all settled at around 7.7-8fpe after a few hundred shots. Good luck troubleshooting.
R
 
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Not having really toyed with the R7 platform I left the Vortek kit in mine and it’s at 7fr lbs in .20.
I think the Vortek kit is a bit over sprung but not that bad. When cocking it is imediately under load from the spring.
That being said it’s accurate and snap shot cycle. Could also be the ball detent needs more room to break causing the load up. Also the amount of lube on the metal kits can cause semi hydro lock in these kits. It’s a good thing for damping and bad for velocity.
 
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