Is the Long Range Hunter(22cal) really 135fps faster than the HW80. According to AoA specs listed and if so is it due to the shorter barrel. They list the HW80 at up to 765fps and the long Range Hunter up to 900fps.
HW80 vs HW80 Long Range Hunter
- Thread starter Teber66
- Start date
No. If anything the shorter barrel will be less powerful. Most HW80 22cal will do 765fps with a JSB 14.35 pellet on average out of the box. Carbines in the past will do slightly less like 735fps with the same pellet. It will do 900 with an alloy pellet but not with a lead pellet. I have had both the standard and the carbine versions in the past.
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Not according to Doc Beeman, he surmised less friction of the shorter barrel would increase fps and accuracy. Less time of the pellet in the barrel would mean less vibration from the gun and less chance of movement from the shooter would enhance accuracy. I don't have 2 factory carbines on hand to test and even if I did there would likely be variance in fps. from one gun to the next.
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The numbers I gave were from personal experience. I have owned 2 R-1 22cal carbines and I have owned 4 22cal R-1/HW80's and the those are the speeds I clocked from the one's I had from the factory. The carbines were about 35 fps slower on average with a CP 14.3 grain pellet. I sold both carbines because the invention of the R-9 made them less popular. A lighter gun with almost the same power that can be tuned to almost factory R-1 Carbine power with less cocking effort was very appealing. A Beeman R-1 Carbine was my first real air gun and I wish I still had it, but I did this very same thing back on 2001 and ended up selling the carbines because they weren't as powerful as the standard barrel version. Less power and greater cocking effort. . It wouldn't keep my from buying the Long Range Hunter, especially with tune kits and alloy pellets shooting as well as they do in springers these days. Either way, call AOA before buying. Their staff is very helpful.
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That "may" be the issue right there if you only tested with the same pellet, others may fair better or worse with longer or shorter barrels. Makes a bit of sense what Doc Beeman said as piston guns are far different from PCP or powder burners when it comes to barrel length and fps. Tests have shown no more than 8-10" or so of barrel is needed for optimal results, in fact AA TX (both HC & standard) as well as their Pro Sport all use 9.5'' barrels.
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It is fast in the HW80K .22 Long Range Hunter with original HW suppressor. Very fast at 734 fps (Muzzle) using JSB Kings (.22). I use those and other .22s in my HW80K .22 and the velocity in downrange result is rather astonishing with forceful impact I cannot measure but HEAR at 35 yards.
I have the HW80 .20 with long barrel and NO suppressor which is very accurate but LOWDER than the moderated .22 Long Range Hunter. To me the shorter muzzled barrel delivers more accuracy and power than a standard .22 HW80 or R1.
I have only the HW80 Long Range Hunter as the best longer range .22 springer in my entire collection and no regular break barrel ever came close to how TIGHT and FAST this rifle is . I HAD to remount it using Diana Zero Recoil mounts which stopped all scope slippage I had with the originally installed HW 3-9X scope and Sports Match Rings with stud. The stud did bend and start to shear before I replaced the mounts with the ZR mount. Now the LR Hunter .22 I have has a Trijicon 3-9X.
I have the HW80 .20 with long barrel and NO suppressor which is very accurate but LOWDER than the moderated .22 Long Range Hunter. To me the shorter muzzled barrel delivers more accuracy and power than a standard .22 HW80 or R1.
I have only the HW80 Long Range Hunter as the best longer range .22 springer in my entire collection and no regular break barrel ever came close to how TIGHT and FAST this rifle is . I HAD to remount it using Diana Zero Recoil mounts which stopped all scope slippage I had with the originally installed HW 3-9X scope and Sports Match Rings with stud. The stud did bend and start to shear before I replaced the mounts with the ZR mount. Now the LR Hunter .22 I have has a Trijicon 3-9X.
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Many years back when I was a spring gun tuner, I wanted to create a hunting piece so I chose the R-1/ HW80. There were no carbine barrels availiable at the time so I tuned my long barrel and it was shooting about 790 fps with 14.3 CP pellets. Found the long barrel akward in the woods so I cut 3" off the barrel. After carefully recrowning I found the velocity jumped to 825 fps and accuracy improved. Still have the test target with 5 shots at 50yds inside 3/4". That was an awesome rifle, later added a Vortek sound moderator which eliminated the crack when fired. Last year sold the rifle to a friend as my bad shoulders could no longer handle the stiff cocking effort of around 45 lbs. That rifle was built about 20 yrs ago and still is a tack driver to this day. Because the rifle was tuned before the barrel was cut, would it be safe to say the shorter barrel increased velocity? Removing the choke definetly improved accuracy! We tried this on some .177 cal barrels with no sucess, only the .22 cal showed improvement.
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I called AOA since they seem to be the only one's to sell the Carbine theses days and they said they were the same velocity. They were out of the 22cal Hunter but would be in within the next month or 2. I wish they sold the HW80 carbine with the mod without the scope and mounts.
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Can chime in from a massive experience perspective here...i wont expand anymore than that.
The HW80 Lazeglide from Venom Arms Mach 1 late 80s and was probably the finest tuned springer ever assembled. 2 variants were available fitted into the finest Turkish Walnut, but the US export ran 26ftlbs nudging 900 fps with certain pellets in .22 and the lazerglide system still holds the English record for the most powerful springer ever (a one off special Dave Pope did at 28ftlbs) making a 3/4 inch group at 65 yards.
Notes on barrel lengths...
Cardew the great Airgun Professor at that time, concluded that the 11inch barrel achieved maximum velocity and where any greater length, slightly slowed the pellet, in complete reverse order of Gas expansion rules as with Firearms and Co2.....and that any additional length was only required to aid cocking, or balancing the gun.......However....this was at 12 ftlbs.
Dave Popes own findings for his 26 ftlbs export model settled on 14 to 15 inches with the remaining length made up by a silencer.
These air rifles are the finest springer machines ever built and exceedingly rare, because he and Ivan put so much effort into them, that it was reported that they were almost making a loss....You would need a few $1000 to capture a minter today.. The centre rifle was Daves own rifle and his preference of the stock variants...
The HW80 Lazeglide from Venom Arms Mach 1 late 80s and was probably the finest tuned springer ever assembled. 2 variants were available fitted into the finest Turkish Walnut, but the US export ran 26ftlbs nudging 900 fps with certain pellets in .22 and the lazerglide system still holds the English record for the most powerful springer ever (a one off special Dave Pope did at 28ftlbs) making a 3/4 inch group at 65 yards.
Notes on barrel lengths...
Cardew the great Airgun Professor at that time, concluded that the 11inch barrel achieved maximum velocity and where any greater length, slightly slowed the pellet, in complete reverse order of Gas expansion rules as with Firearms and Co2.....and that any additional length was only required to aid cocking, or balancing the gun.......However....this was at 12 ftlbs.
Dave Popes own findings for his 26 ftlbs export model settled on 14 to 15 inches with the remaining length made up by a silencer.
These air rifles are the finest springer machines ever built and exceedingly rare, because he and Ivan put so much effort into them, that it was reported that they were almost making a loss....You would need a few $1000 to capture a minter today.. The centre rifle was Daves own rifle and his preference of the stock variants...
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Can chime in from a massive experience perspective here...i wont expand anymore than that.
The HW80 Lazeglide from Venom Arms (fore runner of VMach) late 80s and was probably the finest tuned springer ever assembled. 2 variants were available fitted into the finest Turkish Walnut, but the US export ran 26ftlbs nudging 900 fps with certain pellets in .22 and the lazerglide system still holds the English record for the most powerful springer ever (a one off special Dave Pope did at 28ftlbs) making a 3/4 inch group at 65 yards.
Notes on barrel lengths...
Cardew the great Airgun Professor at that time, concluded that the 11inch barrel achieved maximum velocity and where any greater length, slightly slowed the pellet, in complete reverse order of Gas expansion rules as with Firearms and Co2.....and that any additional length was only required to aid cocking, or balancing the gun.......However....this was at 12 ftlbs.
Dave Popes own findings for his 26 ftlbs export model settled on 14 to 15 inches with the remaining length made up by a silencer.
These air rifles are the finest springer machines ever built and exceedingly rare, because he and Ivan put so much effort into them, that it was reported that they were almost making a loss....You would need a few $1000 to capture a minter today.. The centre rifle was Daves own rifle and his preference of the stock variants...
Well...that's you and AOA for the shorter barrel. Makes me want to get the Hunger version they have. I'm glad you chimed in because I was having difficulty finding anything on the web, except my memory from 20 years ago. lol
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No problem, I conclude that the in-between of the 2 extremes is probably about right (half way between Cardews 11 inch findings and full length) when for your power levels. Plus or minus the odd inch dependent on pellet selection of course..
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Numbers don't sound near logical about most powerful springer ever unless it's only speaking to a very specific time frame. England's own Webley Patriot/Kodiak makes 28-30fpe UN-tuned just to name one and made in the same vicinity as Venom.
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Well for a start the Patriot only made 19 ftlbs until later being fitted with the Gas strut which did take it up to 28 ftlbs and almost 30 ftlbs in .25 but I was talking springer and at that time...In any event the gas strut Patriot was terrible to shoot and could not hold a candle to Popes Lazerglided 80 ....I have shot one. The Theoben Eliminator made a shade more at a full 30.5 ftlbs but again a gas ram of course..I couldnt hit a barn door with it in FAC spec.
The John Winscombe could also get it into 25ftlbs plus territory with its opposing spring technology. A much nicer gun to shoot than the gas rams but to be fair to Popes 80, was more of a Cottage industry special, not really a tuned production rifle....
Popes 80 made that 28 ftlbs in the 80s, was super smooth, beautifully stocked and never really bettered for a simple break barrel springer....
The John Winscombe could also get it into 25ftlbs plus territory with its opposing spring technology. A much nicer gun to shoot than the gas rams but to be fair to Popes 80, was more of a Cottage industry special, not really a tuned production rifle....
Popes 80 made that 28 ftlbs in the 80s, was super smooth, beautifully stocked and never really bettered for a simple break barrel springer....
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Totally incorrect about 19 for a Kodiak, the gas ram was either an aftermarket adaptation, custom work or possibly the Turkish version. Any of the UK versions or Beeman came with a spring never a ram unless modified, I own 2 unmodified spring Kodiaks that both make 28fpe+. If looking for pure power that no non custom could match then look no further than the Dual Magnum @36fpe and shoots 1 1/2'' groups @75 yards. I'd be interested in seeing where that an 80 made any where near 28fpe. It would had to have massive custom work internally to get above 26 which again the Kodiak spring piston easily made 28-30 pending pellet right out of the box. Check Straight Shooters for a quick look at some of the fpe tables of this spring rifle. Also research Terry Does superb accuracy with an Eliminator shooting offhand to some 50 yards.
directly from Straight Shooters Our take page 1st line;
As one would expect, the Webley Patriot is the current King of powerful springers. Whether you use the .22 or the .25 the power level is simply awesome. And they shoot very well too.
directly from Straight Shooters Our take page 1st line;
As one would expect, the Webley Patriot is the current King of powerful springers. Whether you use the .22 or the .25 the power level is simply awesome. And they shoot very well too.
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Yes but it performed badly at 28ftlbs. It was so much happier at 19 to 20 and the reason for the move to Gas strutting it back up to 28 where it was a much nicer gun and preferred to the Eliminator. It had nothing to do with Turkey until late into its production. ..post demise of Webley.
As regard Doe...hmmm....Pretty much all of his reviews revealed similar until you actually got out and shot them....He was well known here for being in the manufacturers back pockets...Off hand the Eliminator was many peoples least favourite FAC.....described as the most violent airgun ever made. I am sure it could make a decent score off a bench in his hands, but was a shocker in the shoulder.
You dont know your 80s.... Pope and Hancocks 28 ftlbs 80 special was known all across the shooting circuit in Britain. The forerunner toured the major gunshops to see if their would be any interest in it on FAC...He also did 2 other versions, one of them at 24 ftlbs in .177 with a thumbhole but he actually achieved 37ftlbs for the record ...It was awful to shoot, and i am certain tried, to see how far he could go with the platform and maybe why it achieved its most powerful springer status....but it formed the basis of his 28 ftlb special which he actually down tuned to 26/28 ftlbs (not up) They all shot beautifully ....I will PM you how I know.....I will add you a link also ...
Since that time, sure ...there has been the odd 30 ftlbs plus magnum, usually massively over sprung but all since....not back then. The HW77 had only just arrived during this period do not forget.
As regard Doe...hmmm....Pretty much all of his reviews revealed similar until you actually got out and shot them....He was well known here for being in the manufacturers back pockets...Off hand the Eliminator was many peoples least favourite FAC.....described as the most violent airgun ever made. I am sure it could make a decent score off a bench in his hands, but was a shocker in the shoulder.
You dont know your 80s.... Pope and Hancocks 28 ftlbs 80 special was known all across the shooting circuit in Britain. The forerunner toured the major gunshops to see if their would be any interest in it on FAC...He also did 2 other versions, one of them at 24 ftlbs in .177 with a thumbhole but he actually achieved 37ftlbs for the record ...It was awful to shoot, and i am certain tried, to see how far he could go with the platform and maybe why it achieved its most powerful springer status....but it formed the basis of his 28 ftlb special which he actually down tuned to 26/28 ftlbs (not up) They all shot beautifully ....I will PM you how I know.....I will add you a link also ...
Since that time, sure ...there has been the odd 30 ftlbs plus magnum, usually massively over sprung but all since....not back then. The HW77 had only just arrived during this period do not forget.
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NEVER was the Patriot/Kodiak offered as a gas ram and never at 19fpe from the factory. Did you read what I copied and pasted from Straight Shooters page and highlighted? Have you done any research at all on the Kodiak/Patriot? Pretty rude how you state I don't know my 80's! For you to think that you know what I know or don't know is pretty ridiculous and again rude. I own 12 Beeman R1's which is what the 80 descended from so I am in fact extremely familiar with them. From the first introduction the Patriot/Kodiak was listed as the worlds most powerful SPRINGER (maybe I should say you don't know your Kodiak's but I won't be rude). How they perform at any power level is always subjective and not fact as would be your opinion of Doe. Those who can't handle recoil will always have problems with powerful piston airguns. If the 80 were to get close to even 26fpe there was substantial machining done and if it's any where 28 then it would be the version that the compression tube was lengthened so radically it could not even be called and 80 any longer. 37 fpe would be laughable unless well documented and massively altered, I would not even consider believing such a claim. If it came even remotely close it would be so altered it would not be anything resembling a true HW80. A very brief look at a Kodiak's bore, stroke and spring show how much more massive it is over the R1/80 and why it makes ~30fpe out of the box and why the 80 can not without massive modifications.
To your email comment of Eliminators being mental and wrecking pellets you must not be using the right pellets or you had a bad gun. I have 2 and never wrecked a single pellet or found it mental. In fact my 2 Dual Magnums which exceed the performance of any factory piston gun and out does the Eli by a good 100+fps has never wrecked a single pellet either. I use CP 14.3, FTS 14.6gr, JSB 16 or 18gr and Kodiak pellets all perform well as they do in my Eliminators. There was a full review of a DM in an Airgun World magazine where they used Kodiak/Bisley pellets and never any mention of pellet issues even at 37 foot pounds.
To your email comment of Eliminators being mental and wrecking pellets you must not be using the right pellets or you had a bad gun. I have 2 and never wrecked a single pellet or found it mental. In fact my 2 Dual Magnums which exceed the performance of any factory piston gun and out does the Eli by a good 100+fps has never wrecked a single pellet either. I use CP 14.3, FTS 14.6gr, JSB 16 or 18gr and Kodiak pellets all perform well as they do in my Eliminators. There was a full review of a DM in an Airgun World magazine where they used Kodiak/Bisley pellets and never any mention of pellet issues even at 37 foot pounds.
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What the hell is your problem.....Popes work on the 80 of course involved extension modification....That is what it was ...the Lazerglide Mach 1..as i stated.....(Mod Edit - removed insults)
I never suggested anything less, and merely made the shout that at the time was generally recognised as the most powerful springer in the world...possibly based on his freakishly powered first efforts into the mid 30s before scaling it back to 28...but even at 24 would still have been top 2 for a springer back at that time......
You stated you doubted it.....so i suggested you are not fully aware of 80s mods of this gun before making such a comment.The fact you now claiming laughable shows me you know little of Daves and Ivans work on this gun....the front runners of FAC springers....
If you want to know how they did it i can tell you....
The Eliminator was proven to over expand skirts with some pellet types, according to Mick Dawes extensive tests....fact...but i will agree some pellet types like you mention were ok...however, this is a springer debate....The Eliminator was Gas Ram
You need to calm down mate....
Doe kicked many valuable tuners and meddlers off the bbs forum that disagreed with him, including the incomparable Tony Leach who invented the seamless piston. Doe viewed Tony as dangerous ....it begs the question...Go read his over enthused Pro Sport article and video...He named it...
The Prosport never matched any of the top 5 regular springers, leaked and twanged out of the box for a rifle 30 years down the line from the 80 intro...thus I view Doe literal works with more than a touch of scepticism.....As do many..
I never suggested anything less, and merely made the shout that at the time was generally recognised as the most powerful springer in the world...possibly based on his freakishly powered first efforts into the mid 30s before scaling it back to 28...but even at 24 would still have been top 2 for a springer back at that time......
You stated you doubted it.....so i suggested you are not fully aware of 80s mods of this gun before making such a comment.The fact you now claiming laughable shows me you know little of Daves and Ivans work on this gun....the front runners of FAC springers....
If you want to know how they did it i can tell you....
The Eliminator was proven to over expand skirts with some pellet types, according to Mick Dawes extensive tests....fact...but i will agree some pellet types like you mention were ok...however, this is a springer debate....The Eliminator was Gas Ram
You need to calm down mate....
Doe kicked many valuable tuners and meddlers off the bbs forum that disagreed with him, including the incomparable Tony Leach who invented the seamless piston. Doe viewed Tony as dangerous ....it begs the question...Go read his over enthused Pro Sport article and video...He named it...
The Prosport never matched any of the top 5 regular springers, leaked and twanged out of the box for a rifle 30 years down the line from the 80 intro...thus I view Doe literal works with more than a touch of scepticism.....As do many..
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Okay. Still I got the HW80K .22 Long Range Hunter from AOA with the HW 3-9X scope and two piece mounts like Sports Match with the fitted stud under the rear ring mount to hold the scope in place. After shooting a few hundred rounds the scope was replaced with Diana ZR mounts by me and another scope. Yes, if you can buy one WITHOUT the scope and mounts then DO IT!
However, the brake on the muzzle is patented HW for air guns only and although there have been many potshots taken at this muzzle brake IT WORKS better than the custom ones sold for many more dollars. There are videos of this available to watch.
My Long Range Hunter is actually lighter than my HW80 .20 and has those sling rings installed for carrying it over hill and dale.
It is a very proficient rifle compared to the regular HW80s and as far as R1 in my experience with any of them before the Long Range Hunter in .22.
However, the brake on the muzzle is patented HW for air guns only and although there have been many potshots taken at this muzzle brake IT WORKS better than the custom ones sold for many more dollars. There are videos of this available to watch.
My Long Range Hunter is actually lighter than my HW80 .20 and has those sling rings installed for carrying it over hill and dale.
It is a very proficient rifle compared to the regular HW80s and as far as R1 in my experience with any of them before the Long Range Hunter in .22.
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I have no problem other than the ones that involve you insulting me which the moderator removed and your misinformation of facts that are well known. When such extensive modifications are done then the rifle can hardly be called an 80. Like dropping a big block into a Beetle and calling it a Volkswagen. You said flatly more than once the Kodiak/Patriot was 19fpe and a gas ram are both utter lies and misinformation. As far as springer debate you were the one who brought up gas rams with incorrect info that they are in Patriot rifles. I was quite calm till the point of you insulting me not once but twice as another keyboard warrior. If Doe kicked anyone off I can see it being Leach (very apt name BTW) he was another keyboard warrior who tried insulting me due to his lack of knowledge about the Dual Magnum. When I put him in his place and informed him of several things he knew nothing about started slinging insults like you. The piston BTW is called skirtless not seemless from what has been written so that would be more misinformation from you.
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