I just installed a vortek pg4 kit, and have taken about 100 shots through it. The gun is shooting amazing. clover shaped groups at 20 yards. The shot sounds great too. I feel like the cocking stroke is really gritty however. I had a serious problem with dieseling, so I installed the kit with very little lubrication. Basically I dabbed it on the piston body, and a little on the side of the piston seal, NONE on the face of the piston seal, none on the spring. Would you guys take the gun apart and add more lube? it just seems like theres galling going on, cocking stroke is not getting smoother. I don't really care about how it feels or sounds, I just don't want to be causing damage.
Hw95 cocking very "gritty" after vortek PG4 kit. what would you do?
- Thread starter cgriff20
- Start date
When I opened the gun up, this is what I found. Any idea how I can prevent this? Or is this normal?
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I had the same thing happen to my HW95 when I installed the PG4 Vortek kit. I tried to sand down the cooking shoe some to prevent the contact. I eventually gave up and just put my ARH Maccarri spring back in as I was really happy with it. I never called Tom at Vortek to let him know what was happening. I just may now that I see I am not the only person to have this happen. The steel guide may not have gotten machined down enough? 
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You should grease the spring so that it slides easier in the guide tube. I have one of the same kits installed and do not see the same problem as you describe. Some grease on the piston itself also helps. Just keep the quantity in check and don't overdo it.
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Not going to say I told you so, but... I mentioned this could happen.
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/hw95-need-help-what-am-i-doing-wrong/
And the Vortek fans told me I was full of it.....
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/hw95-need-help-what-am-i-doing-wrong/
And the Vortek fans told me I was full of it.....
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I probably have installed a half dozen or more of these exact kits in the 95 series rifles with no issues. I use Air Venturi’s tube-in-a-tube red lubricant on the piston and the outside of the exterior spring guide, plus on the internal guide of the top hat - a very light film on each. I put a light coating of the grease that comes with the kit on the spring and in the grooves of the cocking shoe. Normally, I cut one to one and a half coils off and usually end up about 15 fpe. My experience is that a very smooth cocking stroke and deadly accuracy is the typical result. Good luck!
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Looks like the cocking lever shoe is dragging. I'd polish the under side of that shoe with 400-1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper and then do the same to the guide. Make them shine! I may even slightly (very slightly) round off the pushing corner of the shoe where it would meet the guide. After that, a thin coat of moly paste on the outside of the guide and on the shoe.
Credit where credit is due though. Thumper did call this from a mile away. I've never had an issue like this with a Vortek kit.
Credit where credit is due though. Thumper did call this from a mile away. I've never had an issue like this with a Vortek kit.
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Looks like it was starting to gall. You caught it just in time. Galling creates bits of hardened metal that needs removed and is difficult to sand out. I use a carbide scribe to scrape the hardened pieces out. I don't think you have that problem. I too would recommend moiy paste. Polish the cocking shoe rails and moly lube.
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Do I need to remove the lube that I put on the spring if I want to add moly? I re applied the lube that comes with the kit. The grittiness is better but I’m still worried I’m causing damage
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I wouldn't worry so much about what you use on the spring. I just use that yellowish lube that Vortek sends with the order and "string it" up and down the coils. You dont need a whole lot. The action has always glided on silk with it with no issues.
You're focus really only needs to be on the contact surfaces between the spring guide and cocking shoe. Polish and moly should do wonders there.
You're focus really only needs to be on the contact surfaces between the spring guide and cocking shoe. Polish and moly should do wonders there.
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I don't know what the exact issue with your 95 but my R9 was an older rifle having the older style caulking shoe that caused issue with my Vortex tune kit. Had to reorder the kit and new style shoe and all was fine. Once again I can't say for sure what your issue is but you may check the type of caulking shoe you have. Vortex kits are great and I haven't had issue since.
Cheers
Cheers
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Mine is the new style shoe. There’s no way I would order a new kit from vortek. If I can’t fix this one I’ll go with another company, like i should of done. I’m going to try to polish the guide and shoe. Just use sandpaper?
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That rubbing on the spring guide is not normal and it doesn’t look as if a dab of moly will address the problem. It is also impossible to say whether the problem is an oversized guide from Vortek or something unique to your hw95. I have used probably a dozen Vortek kits with good outcomes, but there have been a few fit and sizing problems that I needed to get fixed too. I’d get in touch with Tom and explain the problem and see if he can suggest a remedy.
R
R
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I just sent Tom an email to let him know about my scraping issue with my kit. I've used PG2 and PG3 kits in my Diana 36 and 38 with good results.
After hearing so many positive results, I had to try the PG4 in my HW. I am very capable of machining down my cocking shoe but am not taking gun apart AGAIN to do this. Maybe I'll try it when the ARH spring gives up? It is a bit disappointing as this is to be a drop in kit. If I find a HW98, I may try this kit in there. Or, it may turn up on the classifieds.
Cgriff20, I hope you get yours sorted out!
Jason
After hearing so many positive results, I had to try the PG4 in my HW. I am very capable of machining down my cocking shoe but am not taking gun apart AGAIN to do this. Maybe I'll try it when the ARH spring gives up? It is a bit disappointing as this is to be a drop in kit. If I find a HW98, I may try this kit in there. Or, it may turn up on the classifieds.
Cgriff20, I hope you get yours sorted out!
Jason
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I tend to agree, he might consider polishing the guide tube with a more course finnish and a finer finnish on the cocking shoe. The reason is, it is better to have one of the mating surfaces having a more course finnish to retain lubricant. Steel on steel surfaces tend to cause more issues if both surfaces have fine polished finnishes. For the small shoe, try a cratex polishing wheel mounted on a dremmel tool mandrel, works like a dream !!
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The steel on that outer guide is so soft I'd probably won't even polish well. And if it does, it so soft it wouldn't matter anyway. The one I had was like it was made from cheese it was so soft.
That's why the metal got scraped off of the guide, and ended up between the piston and receiver. That's where that wear mark came from, they don't just gall like that all of a sudden when it was fine before the tune. There was debris or metal from that guide in between there. Clean the receiver out good before you put it back together, and make sure there isn't any of that soft steel embedded anywhere.
Good luck with it.
That's why the metal got scraped off of the guide, and ended up between the piston and receiver. That's where that wear mark came from, they don't just gall like that all of a sudden when it was fine before the tune. There was debris or metal from that guide in between there. Clean the receiver out good before you put it back together, and make sure there isn't any of that soft steel embedded anywhere.
Good luck with it.
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You are right, everything you’ve said about the pg4 kit has been true in my experience. I think the metal guide is a bad design. I would not order this kit again. The only thing that’s keeping me from ordering a different kit is that I already removed and destroyed my piston sleeve. I’m assuming I would need a new piston to use an arh kit. So I’m stuck trying to polish this one and use moly.
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Nah you don't need a new piston for either kit. The sleeve isn't required on an ARH kit, and you may need to remove it anyway for the front guide to slide in. But not always. I like keeping the sleeve, or making a new one from PTFE sheet because I feel it helps dampen noise and requires no lubricant on the spring. But not necessary at all and most guys toss em anyway. A sleeve is super easy to make, especially from plastic type material with nothing but a straight edge and a pair of scissors.
The Vortek kits have always used the outer guide setup, but they were always plastic up until recently. The plastic was much better since it is self lubricating to some extent and doesn't gall like the soft steel. I predict very soon that Vortek will go back to a plastic guide. There is really no benefit at all to it being steel, but lots of downfalls, as you have found out.
Either way, the "traditional" tuning kits are a better approach in every way in my opinion. Larger diameter springs can be used, which are less stressed and usually offer less cocking effort.
You'd be surprised how good the gun will shoot with a homemade piston sleeve and your new seal lubed with moly paste, even with the factory parts. Get the sleeve fitted just right and most of the twang will be gone.
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