Hw95 cocking very "gritty" after vortek PG4 kit. what would you do?
- Thread starter cgriff20
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I put a pg4 kit in a Beaman r10 and had the same galling issues from the cocking shoe rubbing on the metal spring tube. I called Tom at Vortek and told him of the issue his reply was you’re the tuner. What I did I put the piston back in the receiver, taking the spring out of the spring guide and sliding it partially into the piston. Then I sanded the cocking shoe starting with 80 grit adhesive back sandpaper on a pipe with a radius close to that of the cocking shoe, then put shoe in the cocking slot checking for clearance. l finished sanding with 180, 220, 320 and 2000 grit sandpaper. Put it back together and cocking is smooth.
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This is happening to me now, on my HW95L. Brand new gun, brand new kit, new style cocking shoe, and this:
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Wimpanzee, did you remove the thin metal sleeve out of the piston? If not, it needs to be removed for the installation of that Vortek PG4 kit in the HW95L. It should be in the instructions.
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Yes I even had Shane at aoa send me a new piston because there was rust between the piston sleeve and the inside of the piston. They had to take the sleeve out and vinegar the inside of the piston because it was rusted as well.
When I test the cocking shoe and just the spring sleeve, I have clearance it seems the metal sleeve is getting wedged at an angle, supported by the increased gouging further down the cocking stroke.
This is pretty sad for a top of the line springer with a drop in tuning kit.
When I test the cocking shoe and just the spring sleeve, I have clearance it seems the metal sleeve is getting wedged at an angle, supported by the increased gouging further down the cocking stroke.
This is pretty sad for a top of the line springer with a drop in tuning kit.
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Wimpanzee, the manufacturer, HW, did not intend for a metal or plastic sleeve to be sliding past the mouth of the piston or inside of the cocking shoe, so they would not have placed controls on those surfaces necessary to prevent the type of damage being seen here. This time it looks like there is contact between the mouth of the piston and the outer metal spring guide that is causing galling to occur. It could be that tolerances on the diameters are such that near the rear of the metal guide its flange keeps it centered in the receiver, while the piston moves up and back as it is being cocked, causing contact between the two.
In any case the inside of the piston, especially the mouth, needs to be smooth and polished where it contacts the guide. The outside of the guide I would leave with a crosshatch type pattern using around 400 grit paper in order to retain lubricant. The outside of the guide should be well lubricated with moly grease. While you are at it, it wouldn't hurt to polish the inside of the cocking shoe as well.
That should correct the situation, if not, it appears there is a problem involving either tolerancing and/or material selection. Good luck getting this straightened out.
In any case the inside of the piston, especially the mouth, needs to be smooth and polished where it contacts the guide. The outside of the guide I would leave with a crosshatch type pattern using around 400 grit paper in order to retain lubricant. The outside of the guide should be well lubricated with moly grease. While you are at it, it wouldn't hurt to polish the inside of the cocking shoe as well.
That should correct the situation, if not, it appears there is a problem involving either tolerancing and/or material selection. Good luck getting this straightened out.
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Yes, it was shooting "normally" according to AoA. I sent it back once for shooting 10.5 ft.lbs and they said that was normal. I wasn't happy with the rust inside the piston and ordered a new one anyway, besides the one AoA scrubbed out and sent me (see above post).
@michigander its the cocking shoe doing it. The spring guide is not straight or something, and the cocking shoe is rubbing on it.
Tom at Vortek came back with the helpful reply "you did something wrong".
I took it apart again, rotated the gouged part away from the cocking shoe, and cleaned it up, regreased it and put it back together. Try again I guess. We'll see if this made any difference.
@michigander its the cocking shoe doing it. The spring guide is not straight or something, and the cocking shoe is rubbing on it.
Tom at Vortek came back with the helpful reply "you did something wrong".
I took it apart again, rotated the gouged part away from the cocking shoe, and cleaned it up, regreased it and put it back together. Try again I guess. We'll see if this made any difference.
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Wimpanzee, since the damaged area was so wide, I thought it might be something other than the cocking shoe this time. But since it is still the cocking shoe contacting and damaging the outer guide, rifles that have a sliding compression tube should not encounter the same problem.
Obviously there is nothing inherent in the kit design that prevents the cocking shoe from contacting the outer guide. If the guide and piston settle the "wrong" way in the receiver contact can occur. That being the case, polishing the shoe and creating a lubricant retaining surface finish on the guide is the only solution I see. Moly containing lubricant is a good choice here.
Obviously there is nothing inherent in the kit design that prevents the cocking shoe from contacting the outer guide. If the guide and piston settle the "wrong" way in the receiver contact can occur. That being the case, polishing the shoe and creating a lubricant retaining surface finish on the guide is the only solution I see. Moly containing lubricant is a good choice here.
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I put it back together with some m77 on the cocking shoe and slot. It went together a lot easier when i used a long bar clamp and not just tying to push it in vertically. The hinge pin went in better, and felt a lot more aligned than my first re-assembly. Maybe I did "do something wrong" but I followed the same steps as before, from the very good you tube videos on dis/reassembly.
Hopefully get some trigger time in this week once the rain clears and see if it made any difference.
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I've had this issue with the PG4 kit in my R9 & R1 after I added new style cocking shoes. There's a long story here but I will shorten it to this.
There's two different height new style cocking shoes.
One designed for the 26mm Hw95. It is shorter in height and has narrow side grooves and will not fit the larger 30mm compression tubes without a lot of groove filing.
One designed for the 30mm Hw80. It is considerably taller and has wider grooves. This one will work on either size gun without a PG4 kit.
The Weihrauch schematics at Chambers shows the cocking shoe as the same part number for both the Hw95 and the Hw80. I can tell you that they were not always the same part. I don't know if showing the same part number for both is an error or Weihrauch superceded the parts to the one thicker one.
Bottom line, even the right one will rub lightly on the steel guide. This can be fixed by relieving the the back side of the shoe with a sanding roll in a dremel and radiusing all the underside edges of the shoe.
If you have have the taller (originally meant for 30mm) shoe in a 26mm tube it will rub hard and I don't think it can be clearanced to fit because of the wider grooves sink it deeper in the compression tube. In fact this shoe rubbed on my R1(30mm) PG4 outer guide even though it's technically the right part. I wound up filing the grooves of the 26mm shoe and using that.
I don't have any uninstalled Hw95 cocking shoes to measure but Hw80 shoe measures 0.304" tall at the hook slot. I can't see how this shoe will work in a 26mm gun with a PG4 kit. I couldn't even get it to work in my R1 because it's so tall.
There's definitely some confusing stuff going on here. I'll have to dig more into the parts part of it but I also think Tom (Vortek) needs to reassess his dimensions and possibly materials. I've done dozens of his Weihrauch kits and never had a problem with the plastic guides. I much prefer them.
Also when my outer guide scored I chucked it in a drill and sanded down the high spots with 400 wet sand. You don't need to take the grooves out but just the edges off.
Best of luck, I hope this helps and I'll update with more information as I look into the part numbers and possible supercession.
Ron
Along the same lines it appears Weihrauch superceded their 26mm cocking arm with their 30mm and has been causing lots of barrel droop problems on their Hw95 family guns. I don't know what's going on over there lately.
OK so this wasn't short.
There's two different height new style cocking shoes.
One designed for the 26mm Hw95. It is shorter in height and has narrow side grooves and will not fit the larger 30mm compression tubes without a lot of groove filing.
One designed for the 30mm Hw80. It is considerably taller and has wider grooves. This one will work on either size gun without a PG4 kit.
The Weihrauch schematics at Chambers shows the cocking shoe as the same part number for both the Hw95 and the Hw80. I can tell you that they were not always the same part. I don't know if showing the same part number for both is an error or Weihrauch superceded the parts to the one thicker one.
Bottom line, even the right one will rub lightly on the steel guide. This can be fixed by relieving the the back side of the shoe with a sanding roll in a dremel and radiusing all the underside edges of the shoe.
If you have have the taller (originally meant for 30mm) shoe in a 26mm tube it will rub hard and I don't think it can be clearanced to fit because of the wider grooves sink it deeper in the compression tube. In fact this shoe rubbed on my R1(30mm) PG4 outer guide even though it's technically the right part. I wound up filing the grooves of the 26mm shoe and using that.
I don't have any uninstalled Hw95 cocking shoes to measure but Hw80 shoe measures 0.304" tall at the hook slot. I can't see how this shoe will work in a 26mm gun with a PG4 kit. I couldn't even get it to work in my R1 because it's so tall.
There's definitely some confusing stuff going on here. I'll have to dig more into the parts part of it but I also think Tom (Vortek) needs to reassess his dimensions and possibly materials. I've done dozens of his Weihrauch kits and never had a problem with the plastic guides. I much prefer them.
Also when my outer guide scored I chucked it in a drill and sanded down the high spots with 400 wet sand. You don't need to take the grooves out but just the edges off.
Best of luck, I hope this helps and I'll update with more information as I look into the part numbers and possible supercession.
Ron
Along the same lines it appears Weihrauch superceded their 26mm cocking arm with their 30mm and has been causing lots of barrel droop problems on their Hw95 family guns. I don't know what's going on over there lately.
OK so this wasn't short.
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IIRC Ron you had this same issue on my HW30 .22 that required a little sanding of the cocking shoe to eliminate the contact with the Vortek outer guide.
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It's almost like there's not supposed to be a thick, soft cheesy metal sleeve over the spring?
I can't imagine why it would be a problem, seeing the gun was never intended to have one and it does nothing anyway.
Serious question:
Why do y'all still insist on trying to use these things?
I can't imagine why it would be a problem, seeing the gun was never intended to have one and it does nothing anyway.
Serious question:
Why do y'all still insist on trying to use these things?
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This is happening to me now, on my HW95L. Brand new gun, brand new kit, new style cocking shoe, and this:
....just saying, it wouldn't have happened with an ARH kit.
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I had really good luck with PG2 kits in the past. That is why I ordered from AoA - they were advertising PG2, and showed a pic of the plastic guide. Nope, just pg4 kits.
I don't think I'll buy another one tho - I'll give ARH a shot next time!
I don't think I'll buy another one tho - I'll give ARH a shot next time!
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Yes I did. I had to thin and radius the foot of the cocking arm on the 22 Hw30. Your 177 was fine but I had a similar issue with a older 177 R7. That cocking arm was bent by another tuner so I couldn't blame the Vortek kit for that.
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I ordered and received the correct new style cocking shoe for the 26mm Hw95 family guns. You can see it is noticeably shorter in height and the radius at the grooves is tighter for the smaller diameter compression tube. The larger one will work on a Hw95 (without a Vortek PG kit). It's easy to get the wrong one when Chambers shows them as the same part number. Weihrauch has been sloppy with putting similar but wrong parts in the guns the last couple of years. With a PG4 kit the 30mm model rides too deep in the 26mm guns and will chew up the steel outer guide. Here pictures showing the difference and measurements.
HTH someone.
Ron
HTH someone.
Ron
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Read this thread with great interest as I'm mulling an HW95 from AoA with a pre-installed PG4 kit (as you said, their website is out of date - their kits are all PG4 now, not PG2 as advertised). AoA service technician emailed "For what it is worth, I will never buy a spring gun without a Vortek kit in it." Hmmm. After your last effort (m77 application), were you able to cure your issue? I'm not a fan of having to rub down metal parts in the gun just to accommodate a tuning kit's quirks. Seems completely backwards to me. Tuning kits, especially for DIYers, need to accommodate the tolerances of the gun - not the other way around.
I'm also concerned that Tom at Vortek is giving you guys the run-around regarding this issue. He's never heard of this... Really? Come on. I've read about this issue on multiple forums. I'm sure the guy reads this stuff and/or has been called/emailed on numerous occasions. That doesn't breed a lot of confidence.
I don't think AoA sells any other kits besides Vortek (could be wrong on that), and I'd like the gun seller to do the first-time install to keep them on the hook for making it work properly. That makes going the JM route (or UK-supplied routes like V-Mach or Tinbum or whatever) more of a PITA. Ugh.
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