I hate regulators

[Firewalker]

I have one factory regulated rifle, the DAR G3. It's pretty consistent, but I would agree if you can get your springs and ports/pressures right for your barrel length, no need for a reg. I never regulated any of my 2260/disco pcp builds and I would have a nice tight ES in their power curve. Finding the pellet it likes and gives the tightest spread is also part of it all....

I haver the DAR G3 in both .22 & .25 and I bought them purposefully because they DID have regulators for the reasons Motorhead outlines. They are superb at dropping pellet on pellet all they way through the string.

I also have an AEA .22 HP Carbine, I love that it's NOT regulated.

I don't get the hate on either, I see a need and purpose for both.

 

[SlugmasterABC]

In a thread specifically about regulators, you made a statement about valve springs being pointless (other than filling from zero)...with no mention that it’s based on your experience with unregulated PCPs. That’s kind of an important distinction. Without it, the readership has to assume you are talking about regulated PCPs.

But if we are switching topics to unregulated PCPs, a heavier valve spring provides a wider usable pressure range. Meaning a broader bell curve / higher shot count. Achieving “less spread” by removing the valve spring is a possible outcome if one accepts a narrower bell curve. That hardly seems like an indictment against valve springs.

Yup should have mentioned unregulated.
You are actually really heavily putting too much credit on valve returnspring. Force from pressure differential is far superior from any spring you can fit inside and also pressure differential acts alot faster than any mechanical spring. I also dont assign your saying about narrower bellcurve. Iv managed to get under 10fps spread from 200-110bar pressure fill.
In my theory hammer knocks out your valve poppet and it stays open when pressure evens out on both sides untill pressure differential starts to close it when your projectile start to move in barrel, when your pressure drops it self regulates with pressure differential due it stays open longer due less pressure equals less force equals longer acceleration time for projectile. When you have valve return spring it actually has little to do at higher pressures but lower you go it should start to have more effect on open time and that should equal higher spread and less usable pressure range. Not to mention how much extra flowfriction all those springs and extra materials cause and that equal less power worse efficiency. Even going from drill cut surface to mirrorfinish in flowchannels improves your energy output by 5% so we are talking double digit % numbers what you lose with that spring and its socket etc.
Granted I only shoot slugs, cant even remember when I had pellet intended gun. That friction differential in barrel with slug vs pellet might explain my finds and yours.

Gosh wish I had time and energy to do wide testing about this since I really dont have stone cold harsh data to drop.

 

[nervoustrig]

The valve spring is insignificant in terms of the force holding the valve closed. However the instant the poppet is knocked free of the valve seat, the spring takes on a significant portion of the force acting to close the valve. In this way it influences the balance of lift and dwell as the reservoir pressure falls, which is a desirable thing for producing a wide bell curve.

For example, Bob Sterne states “When unregulated, a heavier valve spring will allow a wider pressure range to be achieved within a given ES.”

Info on the effect and choice of valve return spring - Airguns & Guns Forum

Info on the effect and choice of valve return spring, Air guns, Airgun Forum

www.gatewaytoairguns.org

How much of an influence depends on the strength of the spring of course but also the diameter of the valve stem. A large stem already enjoys a comparatively large closing force, in which case the spring isn’t as influential. However people frequently use a small stem to preserve as much flow capacity as possible through the valve throat, in which case the spring plays a larger role.

In a time before I understood this relationship, I had replaced a couple of heavy valve springs with light ones…but in combination with other modifications so I didn’t recognize what the spring alone was doing. Later on I restored the original springs and sure enough, the bell curves improved.

Granted I have not explored the extremes, seeing if going to an ever stronger valve spring will continue to expand the useful pressure range. Logically there should come a point at which the dwell is so brief that it is impossible to make decent power or perhaps we run into some other point of diminishing returns.

Also as you say, there may be some important differences between pellets and slugs in this respect. My experiences described here are with pellets, and most of the guidance I’ve picked up over the years is generally in the context of pellets. Slugs definitely need more dwell so that suggests there is at least some difference in how it will respond.

 

[DJinAZ98]

The problem with unregulated is no matter how you adjust your other variables, every shot is slightly less pressure than the one preceding it. But wait a minute, how come some shots in the middle are higher pressure than those before it. While there is a spring in the valve, air is also a spring in this context. Higher pressure means higher spring rate. By regulating pressure, the spring rate generated by the air valve will be more consistent across the shot range, therefore FPS should be more even as well as FPE.

 

[Vetmx]

Here is my take on unregulated guns vs regulated guns. With the craze of tiny barrel short guns being so popular, the unregulated gun might surprise guys that think a reg is necessary. A short barrel, medium to heavy projectile and a gun with a reg requires a really high reg set point if you want to reach target velocities. Even with a crazy high reg setting you still have to concern yourself with plenum volume and giant porting. Not the case with an unregulated gun. It has all the plenum volume you’ll ever need and is quite happy operating in the 160-220b range. Regulated guns can start to act ugly when you push them above 150b. The simple unregulated gun doesn’t care. None of its components are affected by high pressures which makes them first shot reliable.

 

[thammer]

Here is my take on unregulated guns vs regulated guns. With the craze of tiny barrel short guns being so popular, the unregulated gun might surprise guys that think a reg is necessary. A short barrel, medium to heavy projectile and a gun with a reg requires a really high reg set point if you want to reach target velocities. Even with a crazy high reg setting you still have to concern yourself with plenum volume and giant porting. Not the case with an unregulated gun. It has all the plenum volume you’ll ever need and is quite happy operating in the 160-220b range. Regulated guns can start to act ugly when you push them above 150b. The simple unregulated gun doesn’t care. None of its components are affected by high pressures which makes them first shot reliable.

I truely don't think your Empire XS could have done what is doing with a reg? Small volume airguns are much better off with a tune than a reg IMHO. I'm shooting at RMAC next week with an unregulated gun that has already put up a 3 card score average of 220/250 at 100 yards. I feel zero need for a regulator except for the instance of sub 12 177 in a US gun because ports are typically already too large to tune it down.

 

[Vetmx]

No it couldn’t unless I had the reg set at 180b. Not interested in that reg setting with a .22

 

[Stretch]

I don't hate regulators nor do I hate unregulated. What I hate are manufacturers who make it so difficult to tune a rifle you need to be a master machinist.

 

[PikeP]

Both regulated and unregulated have their places. Owning both within the same rifle, I find being regulated is far more capable for my needs than without. Someone else's needs may deem the unregulated version more capable.

Simply put this is a very opinionated view, and you know what they say about opinions...so I won't go deep down this rabbit hole of all the benefits for each as neither here are truly objectively superior.

 

[toku58]

Well my P-Rod is fitted with a Huma regulator, tuned down to 12 FPE and I love it! I get about 40 goods consistent shots from that tiny little tube.
The only thing I didn't like was the fact that I didn't have a pressure gauge.
I recently added a "T" fitting to the fill port with a fill valve on one side and a pressure gauge on the other.
Looks funky, but it works like a dream!

 

[Corvid_hunter]

I like regulators. My Condor sits in the safe because it isn't. Some day I'll get a regulator for it and show it some love again.

 

[thammer]

I tried to clarify in my original post that a gun designed for a regulator is different. I'm talking about adding one to an originally designed unregulated gun. I'm very familiar with regs. I was at one time the only authorized Lane regulator Dealer/Fitter in the US. Obviously Lane regs can be fitted by just about any one and he sells to the public as well but I was a dealer and authorized fitter and listed a such on his website. It's just my personal opinion that a properly tuned gun that was originally designed for unregulated use in nearly every case can perform as well as a regulated gun. If I ever feel the need for a regulated gun I would prefer it to come factory regulated. I should have posted I hate regulator conversions.

 

[moodyblues]

In my view you can use regs just like any other tuning trick or tool. My guns that I use to make a lot of power are not regulated, but my sons NP03 is regulated. I only need 850fps with CPHPs out of it. I was dealing with valve lock 2,900psi and had to just fill to 2,600 if I remember right. That cost shots, and if I cranked the hammer up to reliably open the valve at 2,900 then I had a huge bell curve. It was an easy problem to fix, dropped a huma reg in set at 120bar. Much smoother cocking due to less hammerspring, very consistent with a low ES and I can fill over 2,900 for even more shots. I get if you’re chasing power than a reg is a bad idea, and maybe a master tuner can duplicate my regged 03 but I’m not there yet. I may be off base and using a reg to cheat the lack of tuning ability, but even if that’s the case a reg is a good cheat for newer guys that haven’t made it to the level of mastery some have. My 2cents!

Beau

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

How wicked would Eastern European guns be if they also came unregulated ?

They already put out serious power as is, unregulated would be awesome.

 

[toku58]

I tried to clarify in my original post that a gun designed for a regulator is different. I'm talking about adding one to an originally designed unregulated gun. I'm very familiar with regs. I was at one time the only authorized Lane regulator Dealer/Fitter in the US. Obviously Lane regs can be fitted by just about any one and he sells to the public as well but I was a dealer and authorized fitter and listed a such on his website. It's just my personal opinion that a properly tuned gun that was originally designed for unregulated use in nearly every case can perform as well as a regulated gun. If I ever feel the need for a regulated gun I would prefer it to come factory regulated. I should have posted I hate regulator conversions.

MHO is that the addition of a regulator to any unregulated gun helps to flatten the curb and be more consistent.
Every gun has an ideal/consistent air pressure that it performs at it's Best.

That being said the regulator helps every shot stay in that optimum range for as long as possible to provide the most consistent shot spread.
e.g. my P-rod shoots great at the 1100 PSI range.
The fact that it pressurizes to 3000 PSI means a regulator keeps each shot that the valve see at 1100 PSI even if the cylinder is actually at 3000 PSI.
This means every shot taken is at 1100 PSI so it will be very consistent. (Until it falls off the regulator)

 

[Franklink]

.... It's just my personal opinion that a properly tuned gun that was originally designed for unregulated use in nearly every case can perform as well as a regulated gun....

I agree.

Shot my unregulated USFT at a field target match this past weekend and was high score, 55/56. And that one miss was because I psyched myself out about being so close to a perfect score on my second to last shot and shanked it.

There may have also been an unregulated Huntsman being shot but otherwise I think the rest of the competition was running regulated guns.

Also not against regulators as I own guns with them too. But a regulated gun is not necessarily a better gun or even an upgrade over an unregulated one. Know how high to fill and at what pressure to refill (and live within those pressures unerringly) and an unregulated gun can be just as consistent in fps as a regulated one.

 

[Tomygun1]

The sweet spot is the goal, as mentioned. Unregulated find your pressure curve for accuracy and stay within it, regulated set your sweet spot on the reg and just shoot…

 

[thammer]

The sweet spot is the goal, as mentioned. Unregulated find your pressure curve for accuracy and stay within it, regulated set your sweet spot on the reg and just shoot…

Slapping a reg in an unregulated gun doesn’t always get you better results than tuning the unregulated gun. If you don't address hammerspring/hammerweight and porting you likely won't get more shots or even the same much less more power. That's the point. In addition to the extra points of possible leaks and orings you have to tune the gun anyway to get efficiency from the reg. If you can tune the gun to be consistent without why add the cost and maintenance.

 

[Vetmx]

I’ve worked on quite a few guns that the previous owner put a reg in them. All were so far from being regulated guns. They were just unregulated guns with a reg in them. The previous owners left so much on the table and probably sold them because they weren’t meeting their regulated expectations.

 

[jmohme]

I love regulators!
I recently acquired my first regulated air gun and couldn't be happier.
I ran 100 shots across my chronograph this morning and got 100 very consistent shots. The only real variations was when I paused to reload magazines. Then I had a slight peak for one shot. then it all settled back down.