I make money the old fashioned way...

[scotton]

Some of our shooting events are giving out prize money for the top places. While it's not an "extreme" amount, it's not nuthin. Although this has always left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm not going to be a baby about it. It's there, it's a thing, we aren't going to unscrew that particular poodle.

So here's where I would like to see some opinions from other competitors: If there is prize money on the line, how do you want to see ties broken? To me, the obvious answer is a shoot off. A shoot off will make the cream rise to the top and is very entertaining for everyone present. I can't remember every match I've attended, but I can remember every shoot off that I've been in or watched. (Ask me some time about my extremely embarrassing shoot off at the Skeet Worlds a decade ago. It was bad, but still entertaining for everyone that wasn't me)

I get that sometimes you have a local match where 8 people show up and no one is interested in sticking around for a "bragging rights" shoot off. Sure, figure out who had the best standing lane score, or the first miss, or who is the tallest (my preferred non-shoot out tie breaker). But if there is money or a trophy or GP points on the line, I feel like a shoot off is the only fair way to break ties. Plus, we are all finishing around the same time. It's not like someone has to sit around for a couple of hours to see if they are in a shoot off.

The only person negatively impacted by a shoot off is the match director, but they should already know where they are going to have a shoot off if the need arises, so it's really not that big of a deal to set up.

Thoughts?

 

[Cloud9AG]

Amen

 

[Motorhead]

We have them once in a while ( club shoots ) even tho ties are somewhat common.
Most just give a handshake to there person in tie, see ya next match & BTW Good shootin !

 

[Podna]

Absolutely shoot it off. I’m like you Scott, I can remember all the shoot offs I’ve been in or witnessed.

Art “Podna” Womack

 

[davecole]

I'm with Art and SCotton. Whether it's cash, prizes or awards of any sort, a shoot off is the best method.

 

[Feinwerk]

Or you could just split the prize money in case of a tie, shake hands and congratulate each other on good shooting and say see you next time if the match director doesn't want to allow the extra time for a shoot off. Is the goal really to win, win some money, or just have fun and be recognized by your peers?

 

[rcs9250]

I think the biggest problem with a tie is the award. There’s 1st place, 2nd place, etc. A shoot off fixes that, as long as a shoot off is understood at beginning of match. I suppose a shooter could always succeed and give his opponent the 1st place or whatever place has the tie.

 

[rich177]

I ran FT matches for a long time and I tried just about everything for prizes including gift items, trophies, metals, certificates and on and on. I found that whatever you do you cannot make everyone happy. I finally settled on giving cash for first place only in each division/class depending on participation. I gave no cash for second, third, etc. simply because they did not win. Again, depending on participation i gave pins for first, second, and third place in division/class. I believe that the top shooters should be acknowledged in some way but there is no right or wrong way, just different opinions. The prize procedure should be made known to the shooters before the match.

How to handle ties scores is other opinion situation with no right or wrong way as long as it is known to the shooters beforehand. Shoot offs can be fun but take more time and work to set up and run. I always had people traveling to our matches and they want to hit the road asap so I always avoided shoot offs in favor of using a tie breaker lane which works fine and is easy to figure out. It was announced at the shooters meeting so it was as fair as anything else

Match directors can use whatever procedure they prefer. The most important thing is that the shooters know what the procedure is ahead of time. Simply put, plan your match and then run it according to your plan!

Rick B.

 

[qball]

IMHO price money even a little bit is detriment to the sport or the sportsmanship/camaraderie. It’s a hobby and like to keep it that way, money ruins everything good in life or more specifically brings out the worst in people.

Shoot off happens once a while.

 

[Motorhead]

Or you could just split the prize money in case of a tie, shake hands and congratulate each other on good shooting and say see you next time if the match director doesn't want to allow the extra time for a shoot off. Is the goal really to win, win some money, or just have fun and be recognized by your peers?

Exactly what happen on the ONLY Air Gun Prize money match I've ever shot. ( Oregon EFT / EBR 2021 )
Tied for second place in EFT & we shot off to the tune of IIRC 16 shots each and still tied. Match was not done with EBR portion still needing to be shot.
We split the $100/$75 purse, shook hands and called it a great time !

 

[ToddGeddes63]

Your title is misleading sir,
I thought this post was going to be way different! I will be in the corner

 

[scotton]

Your title is misleading sir,
I thought this post was going to be way different! I will be in the corner

 

[zx10wall]

I agree on tie breakers!

Get to the line and let it be decided right there. It adds to the event and also adds another layer of entertainment for all. If you need to scoot out, laters

 

[zx10wall]

There ain’t nothing wrong with gift certificates and or prize money. This hobby is not cheap. Gas & hotels aren’t either. Let’s get it!!

And another thing, “the old fashioned way”, this means you work for it. I work for my living as well.

I also work for any gift certificates or prize money I earn too. Practice time, pellets, air, controlling my nerves, focus, determination and energy are all work big dog!!

 

[scotton]

There ain’t nothing wrong with gift certificates and or prize money. This hobby is not cheap. Gas & hotels aren’t either. Let’s get it!!

And another thing, “the old fashioned way”, this means you work for it. I work for my living as well.

I also work for any gift certificates or prize money I earn too. Practice time, pellets, air, controlling my nerves, focus, determination and energy are all work big dog!!

Yeah, D-Wall. That's what I had in mind when I wrote the title to the thread. You want the prize money? You have to earn it by beating the other shooters in a shoot off. Not trying to imply that anyone is winning money they haven't "earned".

My issues with prize money in general are just that: my issues. I've competed in sports with big prize money and I didn't like the effect it had on the nature of the competition (or on me).

 

[zx10wall]

Yeah, D-Wall. That's what I had in mind when I wrote the title to the thread. You want the prize money? You have to earn it by beating the other shooters in a shoot off. Not trying to imply that anyone is winning money they haven't "earned".

My issues with prize money in general are just that: my issues. I've competed in sports with big prize money and I didn't like the effect it had on the nature of the competition (or on me).

The group I shoot with in Texas for monetary prizes are good folks. I don't see it changing anything here in the Lone Star State. I mean it's only $250 or so for 1st. Nothing earth shattering! It covers entry fees and some gas. Not even my hotel or pellet costs. I see no detriment to our hobby with such perks being awarded.

 

[Centercut]

% tie breakers with shoot off. If 90+ percent of the match is open position, then the shoot off should NOT be determined by forced position. To me, that’s just ignant. Start with one KZ size and distance then if tie then smaller KZ or further distance. And so on…

If the tie “breaker” is not a shoot off, then there is a “tie” (for whatever place), and the purse for those positions should be split amongst those that “tied”. At the absolute minimum the shoot off should be held to settle 1-2-3 places.

In NO case should it be left up to the shooters. If one knew in advance he had the most cleared lanes or whatever, why would he agree to a shoot off?

 

[AirNGasman]

As probably the WORST-OFFENDER Match Director (for using alternative tie-breakers), I'm also likely the Match Director most in agreement with you Scott (that shoot-offs are certainly the BEST and PURIST option). However as also first and foremost a Realist, I designed the most PERFECT rule on the subject of tie-breakers-

"Tie-breakers are (in order) - 1) Shoot-off, if agreed by tied competitors. 2) Most cleaned lanes. 3) High standing lane score. 4) Coin flip. 5) Pissin’ match."

One of my highest MD priorities is what's best for my shooters. Correction- THE MAJORITY of my shooters. And my matches possibly attracting competitors from more (collective) miles than any other FT competition(s), I'm probably more hyper-sensitive to shooters' desires to get back on the road home. This weekend was a perfect example.

With a FIVE-way tie for second place in the rifle match, but not wanting to delay announcement of the results an (extra) hour in order to stage a shoot-off to decide second and third places, I asked the other gentleman I was tied with what his tie-breaker preference was. He wanted a shoot-off, AS DID I. However in deference to every other shooter awaiting results, my NOT agreeing to a shoot-off meant we defaulted to #2 above; STILL a tie! Then #3 above, STILL A TIE! My opponent would not agree to #4 (coin-flip), so that left us the #5 tie-breaker option.

Me being 69 years of age, I decided to rely on the wisdom a higher power. "I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for campaign purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience."

Obviously my 20 year younger opponent would have no chance in the #5 tie-breaker, since me being the Match Director, I would dictate the #5 deciding parameter would be length of time required from the "fire" command to complete the tie-breaker, rather than length of the competitors' barrels or accurate range. Hence, rather than cheating my opponent of any chance of prevailing in the #5 tie-breaker option, I conceded second place to him.

With almost immediate feedback from other competitors in attendance identical to that echoed in this thread, I am now remorseful of not agreeing to a shoot-off. And, without doubt, $50 poorer than had I exploited my opponent's youth and inexperience!

 

[delooper]

Your title is misleading sir,
I thought this post was going to be way different! I will be in the corner

I also thought this was a prostitution thread.

 

[PaulNTX]

Offering up the chance of watching you and the other shooter pee on an electric fence would certainly have kept most out of town travelers around to watch THAT show!!!!
Winner is the last man standing!!!!

Pablo