I'm calling BullS×÷T on Artillery Hold
- Thread starter JoeWayneRhea
- Start date
I agree 100%. I tried it. it sucked. I get groups inch and half at 30 yds. With my springer holding it as tight as i can. And i took off the junk bsa scope. Using iron sights. I cant seem to find a scope that will hold the adjustement. They all float after 25 to 30 shots.bottom line is however you hold it..repeat it every shot. And toss them scopes. I mashed mine on an anvil with a sledge..and shipped it back to bsa.
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Get a short stroked 22mm skirt less piston mod from Tony Leach for the TX200HC. Been talked about around here and on GTA. Super fast shot cycle and significantly less hold sensitivity. Almost recoilless and still hits 11-12ft/lbs with ease. Very close to shooting a 10m (FWB300, LGV, etc) gun but with power.
I just got one of his kits for my HC. It's the bomb. Will be providing some info down the road when time permits.
Regards,
DT
I just got one of his kits for my HC. It's the bomb. Will be providing some info down the road when time permits.
Regards,
DT
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Just got a new higher power scope for my TX200 and it seemed like the shots opened up considerably.
Went inside and did a bunch of spring testing, top hat installation, re-lubing, and polishing.
Found great accuracy when resting the back of my hand and laying the gun in my palm lightly against my shoulder.
Went inside and did a bunch of spring testing, top hat installation, re-lubing, and polishing.
Found great accuracy when resting the back of my hand and laying the gun in my palm lightly against my shoulder.
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Don't do what I do
Back in the 90's I got a Diana 34 for a rodent problem, for two winters one shot one rat TU.
Then the ferrel cats took over and the gun sat. Once or twice a year I'd target a squirrel but couldn't hit the garage from 5 ft. Two years ago the rats came back and I ended up with a couple PCP's but I took out the 34 last night. Even with a new scope and detuned spring , no matter what hold it was junk. So I thought about it for a while, what was I doing back then? I had pallets set up on end for rests and rested the barrel on them. So I tried just the barrel on the sand bag. And it's back trust worthy. It's probably hard on the gun.
my 2 cents
Back in the 90's I got a Diana 34 for a rodent problem, for two winters one shot one rat TU.
Then the ferrel cats took over and the gun sat. Once or twice a year I'd target a squirrel but couldn't hit the garage from 5 ft. Two years ago the rats came back and I ended up with a couple PCP's but I took out the 34 last night. Even with a new scope and detuned spring , no matter what hold it was junk. So I thought about it for a while, what was I doing back then? I had pallets set up on end for rests and rested the barrel on them. So I tried just the barrel on the sand bag. And it's back trust worthy. It's probably hard on the gun.
my 2 cents
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I shoot all my guns holding the exact same way. All that other crap about how to hold them is crap. I shoot Rimfires the same way. My last rimfire I bought is super accurate and works the same holding it. It is a killer. That is 1/10th the area of a dime to put that in perspective. I shoot all bench now. But hold them all the same.
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I have a RWS 34 in .177 and a Diana 48 in .22 and I can say without a doubt that both rifles POI change depending on the hold. Something interesting though, both rifles had been shot off my Caldwell bags and both shot like shotguns. Having been wanting a descent front rest I bought a cast iron Bald eagle with a Bald Eagle front bag. The front bag is only 2 1/4" wide and has a relatively slick nylon type surface. One day after I was through shooting one of my 300's I shot the 34 off the new rest. It shot some really nice groups to my surprise. I think the Caldwell bag wouldn't let the rifles free recoil like the Bald Eagle bag will.
My take on spring rifles is that it's more important to have a consisntant hold than worry about the A hold.
My take on spring rifles is that it's more important to have a consisntant hold than worry about the A hold.
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The principle behind the Artillery Hold is sound. As a competition shooter (10-meter air rifle and 50-meter rimfire, the Olympic disciplines) I know that all too well. The first thing I've learned is that the way you position yourself, the spot where you place your finger on the trigger, the amount of pressure on the various contact points on the rifle, and the way you hold it, must be the exact same over and over again in order to shoot in the exact same spot.
In the 50-meter rimfire competitions we shoot 60 shots accurately placed in the 10.4mm size 10-ring. When I put ever so slightly more pressure on my cheekpiece or grip for instance, it will result in a 9.9 in stead of a 10.9. So in other words, yes the hold is extremely important! The morale behind the Artillery Hold philosophy is repeatability, and doing the exact same thing each and every time. That's at least why I train 5 times a week. ;-)
So BS? Well, not so much...
In the 50-meter rimfire competitions we shoot 60 shots accurately placed in the 10.4mm size 10-ring. When I put ever so slightly more pressure on my cheekpiece or grip for instance, it will result in a 9.9 in stead of a 10.9. So in other words, yes the hold is extremely important! The morale behind the Artillery Hold philosophy is repeatability, and doing the exact same thing each and every time. That's at least why I train 5 times a week. ;-)
So BS? Well, not so much...
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The morale may be repeatability, but it is the same with any rifle, being held in any way, or shot off a rest. Especially so in competitive (powder burner) pistol competitions, which - yes - I’ve competed in and have knowledge of.
I’m not going to disagree that repeatability is most definitely important, but I will wholeheartedly disagree to the fairy tale belief that - the only way to get consistency out of a springer rifle is by using the artillery hold. That is absolute garbage.
I’m not going to disagree that repeatability is most definitely important, but I will wholeheartedly disagree to the fairy tale belief that - the only way to get consistency out of a springer rifle is by using the artillery hold. That is absolute garbage.
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It's more so with springers compared to PCP's for instance, because of the violent internal movement of a spring and piston that slams and bounces against the breech. It isn't the ONLY way to get consistency, I fully agree, but this simple guideline helps newcomers to the airgun world with learning to shoot accurate with a spring of gas ram powered air rifle. Placing it on a shooting bag works also great, or a rifle rest, just as long as you do it the same way with each shot. That's what I'm trying to say @Cuzur. 
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I think that over the years some air gun manufactures that sell poorly made inaccurate springers use the artillery hold as an excuse, just a way to blame the poor accuracy/quality on the shooter.
I could maybe agree/believe that if you had a spring rifle that was grouping a half inch at 25 yards, maybe you could alter the hold and get a quarter inch group. However, if a rifle is grouping a couple inches at 25 yards I really can't believe there is much that can be done with the "hold". Not drinking that Kool-Aid!
I could maybe agree/believe that if you had a spring rifle that was grouping a half inch at 25 yards, maybe you could alter the hold and get a quarter inch group. However, if a rifle is grouping a couple inches at 25 yards I really can't believe there is much that can be done with the "hold". Not drinking that Kool-Aid!
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Depends, if the person behind the rifle is doing everything wrong (from trigger control, breathing, hold, pressure, etc), large group sizes can be explained. But if he or she shoots well with one springer, and crapy with another, a problematic rifle, bad pellets, or what ever other reason, might be the cause. If you look at the premium brands like Air Arms, Feinwerkbau, Diana and Weihrauch, these things are accurate, period! Those cheaper brands like Hatsan and Gammo, you can get lucky with those, but lemons with these are more common than the standard. Been there, done that, never again! But even with those cheap a$$ brands, I'm still able to shoot tighter groups than what you mention Ray.
But... there's always a but! Mr. Tom Gaylord, the person who came up with the Artillery Hold back in the 90's, is someone who is highly respected in the airgun community and who deserved his stripes. To just say that what he has discovered back then is BS, is like saying that Neil Armstrong knows dick poope about landing on the moon.
Oh, and what most people want is high velocity, the higher the better. But they forget that those magnum rifles that shoot faster than the speed of sound are inaccurate as hell because of the ballistic problems that come with pellets entering - and exiting - the sound barrier. Want to talk ballistics? Just see what happens to a pellet with the ballistic coefficiency of an ice cube, once it leaves the sound barrier. Do I hear someone say 'pellet wobble'?
But... there's always a but! Mr. Tom Gaylord, the person who came up with the Artillery Hold back in the 90's, is someone who is highly respected in the airgun community and who deserved his stripes. To just say that what he has discovered back then is BS, is like saying that Neil Armstrong knows dick poope about landing on the moon.
Oh, and what most people want is high velocity, the higher the better. But they forget that those magnum rifles that shoot faster than the speed of sound are inaccurate as hell because of the ballistic problems that come with pellets entering - and exiting - the sound barrier. Want to talk ballistics? Just see what happens to a pellet with the ballistic coefficiency of an ice cube, once it leaves the sound barrier. Do I hear someone say 'pellet wobble'?
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This is a reason why I absolutely hate any videos on YouTube that try to provide previews of pellet accuracy out of specific rifles. You have YouTube channels such as “Expert Airgun Reviews”, who critique rifles and blame the inaccuracies on the rifle despite the fact the gentleman is unable to “artillery hold” the gun in the same style more than once or twice. He then proceeds to inform the viewers that a 2 inch group at 25 yards is “about as good as it gets with this rifle”. If you watch his review of the Walther Terrus and Parrus, you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about.
The artillery hold might be an exceptional way to hold a spring style rifle. But it’s going to be similar to any other hold, in the sense that it all comes down to uniformity and consistency on the shooters behalf.
There is a lot to be said - regarding accuracy - in Springer quality and taking the time to find a pellet match. There are many pellets that I can run through my HW 97 that will not group regardless how I hold the rifle. I cannot blame the inaccuracy on my hold style. It’s simply a poor match.
I believe a lot of the people who assume their hold is incorrect due to poor accuracy, might be able to find exceptional accuracy by simply changing to a different pellet. Sadly I have met a few Springer shooters who complained of poor accuracy and had no idea that different pellets would provide different results
The artillery hold might be an exceptional way to hold a spring style rifle. But it’s going to be similar to any other hold, in the sense that it all comes down to uniformity and consistency on the shooters behalf.
There is a lot to be said - regarding accuracy - in Springer quality and taking the time to find a pellet match. There are many pellets that I can run through my HW 97 that will not group regardless how I hold the rifle. I cannot blame the inaccuracy on my hold style. It’s simply a poor match.
I believe a lot of the people who assume their hold is incorrect due to poor accuracy, might be able to find exceptional accuracy by simply changing to a different pellet. Sadly I have met a few Springer shooters who complained of poor accuracy and had no idea that different pellets would provide different results
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I've tried the artillery hold, don't like it, never use it. I now shoot exclusively using a single shooting stick both for target shooting and hunting. I wrap my index finger around the front of the stock and my index finger knuckle is solidly pressing the stock against the foam grips on the pole, tight grip in my right hand and butt firmly into my shoulder. I routinely hit within an inch at 50 yards with this method. The foam grips prevent any vertical movement of the gun yet I can very quickly change my vertical shooting angle up or down along the foam grips. I now have four grips on the pole for more range in vertical angle. The pole only weighs 11oz so no problem carrying it along. Can't beat this all around method of shooting a heavy springer in my opinion. Don't care for bench rest shooting at all as I'm always on the move.
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I agree fully on that with you @Cizur, pellet choice is also something that causes inaccuracy as I mentioned! But with all the 'how to hold' principles (regardless if it's Artillery Hold or something else), you must assume that the shooter has done his or her research on what pellet shoots best from their rifle.
That's a great hold @outdoorman, especially in the field! This is exactly what I'm trying to say, just as long as you can repeat the hold in the exact same way each and every time, it doesn't matter how you shoot, you will get accuracy. And that is the whole principle behind the Artillery Hold. It isn't the holy grail, it's merely a guideline that helps you with getting accuracy.
That's a great hold @outdoorman, especially in the field! This is exactly what I'm trying to say, just as long as you can repeat the hold in the exact same way each and every time, it doesn't matter how you shoot, you will get accuracy. And that is the whole principle behind the Artillery Hold. It isn't the holy grail, it's merely a guideline that helps you with getting accuracy.
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Also not a fan of the artillery hold concept. I've never found it to improve accuracy of any of the springers I own.
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It's just an old LLBean carbon fiber adjustable trekking pole. I took the original grip off, took the knob off the top which reveals a 1/4-20 threaded stud. I installed a 1/4-20 threaded insert into one end of a 3/4 wood dowel to add height to the pole and put 4 foam silicone sponge grips on the pole. There are tons of different poles you could use, just do a search on camera stick/pole/monopole/whatever to find something suitable. The lighter the better. Got the grips from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06VTC7VTM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Made a little video while out plinking this morning. There are hundreds of bottles and jars on the property I shoot on so I line them up on logs and shoot them at various ranges. Can usually get multiple shots out of each one. Great impromptu target practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzWVvYi6d0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzWVvYi6d0
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