In search of the elusive one hole group

[rsfrid]

My winter hobby is shooting in the basement at 8 yards from a bench with my Weihrauch HW44 in 177. I am determined to get at least one group that measures right at 4.52mm with 5 shots. Whether it's possible or not is not the issue. It's the hobby - gives me a mission for these cold, snowy Northern Michigan days. Anyway, I am closing in on that elusive group as shown below.

The lower left bull is the closest I've gotten so far. I'm using QYS Chinese match wad cutter pellets 8.18 grains. I also use JSB match hand sorted 8.26 grain wad cutter pellets.

 

[Dr. Kralenstein]

Those are technically one hole groups

 

[wendell]

That's what I call rodent head accuracy.

 

[rsfrid]

Just measured OD on the small group and it's 5.7x5.9 mm.

 

[Smitty911]

Just measured OD on the small group and it's 5.7x5.9 mm.

I'd go ahead and slip a larger pellet in the mix to clean up the rough edges or give the other pellets clearance.

That lower left group is damn tight.

Nice shooting.

Smitty

 

[Ranchibi]

Oh my Ross! That one group along with the others is SO CLOSE! If it were me, I would count that one as a ONE HOLE 5 shot group.....paper might have just torn a tad just from wind turbulence! Ha..there ya go! Just excellent shooting by you and your awesome HW44 .

 

[rsfrid]

Oh my Ross! That one group along with the others is SO CLOSE! If it were me, I would count that one as a ONE HOLE 5 shot group.....paper might have just torn a tad just from wind turbulence! Ha..there ya go! Just excellent shooting by you and your awesome HW44 .

Just keep in mind Randall, if I cheated myself, then the mission would be over! I'm in this for the long haul. I have no thoughts that a 4.52mm hole 5 shot group is even physically possible, but I can dream. Thanks for the encouragement. It's a blast sitting here in no wind conditions - just me and the pistol. Dreaming I'll get 5 pellets so perfect they all go through exactly the same hole! What a dreamer, eh?

 

[Ranchibi]

Just keep in mind Randall, if I cheated myself, then the mission would be over! I'm in this for the long haul. I have no thoughts that a 4.52mm hole 5 shot group is even physically possible, but I can dream. Thanks for the encouragement. It's a blast sitting here in no wind conditions - just me and the pistol. Dreaming I'll get 5 pellets so perfect they all go through exactly the same hole! What a dreamer, eh?

Ross, I'm like you, I strive for perfection but know it's unobtainable, but, that is what makes it fun shooting these incredible pcp machines, it's the process and the journey! Those groups are special .

 

[Jammin22]

Damn nice groups! I shot a HW44 .22 for first time last night, they are SWEET! That is on my bucket list. Keep up good work.

 

[beerthief]

I personally take this as a Challenge !

 

[Dr. Kralenstein]

I wonder if you set up the target even 10 feet away and had the gun mounted steady if it would give a single hole group? Variation in pellet shape and the paper moving from shot to shot I don't know if it's possible, but you found something to occupy your time! Nothing wrong with practice towards perfection!

 

[maxtrouble]

Nice shooting! The HW44 is an accurate beast, have you jumped down the "perfect pellet" rabbit hole yet? There are a lot of wadcutters! That could be the key to the Ultimate group.

The HW44 can be sent to AoA and have it set to 5 fpe. The pistol becomes a black hole at that fpe. Six! magazines from a 200 BAR fill. I dropped my HW44 at the range (long story, scope ate all the damage and I am hard on stuff) and afterwards it went from 12 fpe to 5 fpe. Called AoA and they explained that I got lucky and flipped the transfer port. I shot the HW44 the entire winter like that and had AoA fix it in the spring. I wish this was an external setting!

 

[MikeAllen]

NICE! I can manage about 10 yards in my (comfortable, heated) workshop - I think I'll challenge myself to do this!

 

[MRaccurate]

Good goal. Perfection should always be the goal. I am new to this site and I am always going after data about what impacts shooting results. I have been shooting air guns about 6 years and before that I wasn't a very good shot. I have gotten better due to some better understanding of how sights work and variations I have developed. I have noticed that I experience muzzle lift with my Diana Chaser CO2 pistol shooting at 13.5 yards. If I hold down the receiver onto the shooting bag, I get 1/4" lower results versus when I allow the barrel to float. Can I get your thoughts on this?

 

[rsfrid]

Good goal. Perfection should always be the goal. I am new to this site and I am always going after data about what impacts shooting results. I have been shooting air guns about 6 years and before that I wasn't a very good shot. I have gotten better due to some better understanding of how sights work and variations I have developed. I have noticed that I experience muzzle lift with my Diana Chaser CO2 pistol shooting at 13.5 yards. If I hold down the receiver onto the shooting bag, I get 1/4" lower results versus when I allow the barrel to float. Can I get your thoughts on this?

Yes. CO2 is no different than powder burner pistols. You must have a good grip that has resulted from thousands of rounds down range. What you observed makes total sense. And if you strap it down using some sort of fixed bench support, it will be different yet. I spend many hours not just perfecting my hand grip and placement of both hands and all the fingers, not just trigger finger. I also try to commit these things to muscle memory. I shot NRA bullseye matches for years until I got bored. This helps. But whatever combination of factors you end up with that works for you, concentrate on repeating those things every time. But don't forget as you get better and better (or more consistent) eventually you have to factor in the pellets and how consistent they are. That's another story entirely.

 

[DonC]

Ross,
Are you limited to 8 yards indoors?
I shoot a scoped and benched Morini 162E at 50 feet indoor basement. My groups are nearly one hole with Hand N Final Match and Vegel wadcutters.
Perhaps you can figure out how to get a farther indoor distance. Some guys will shoot from one room into another room with safety barricades in place for anyone else in the house.

 

[rsfrid]

Ross,
Are you limited to 8 yards indoors?
I shoot a scoped and benched Morini 162E at 50 feet indoor basement. My groups are nearly one hole with Hand N Final Match and Vegel wadcutters.
Perhaps you can figure out how to get a farther indoor distance. Some guys will shoot from one room into another room with safety barricades in place for anyone else in the house.

Yeah, that's my limit for now. No worries though, as in January our club indoor range opens for 25 yard shooting.

 

[MRaccurate]

Yes. CO2 is no different than powder burner pistols. You must have a good grip that has resulted from thousands of rounds down range. What you observed makes total sense. And if you strap it down using some sort of fixed bench support, it will be different yet. I spend many hours not just perfecting my hand grip and placement of both hands and all the fingers, not just trigger finger. I also try to commit these things to muscle memory. I shot NRA bullseye matches for years until I got bored. This helps. But whatever combination of factors you end up with that works for you, concentrate on repeating those things every time. But don't forget as you get better and better (or more consistent) eventually you have to factor in the pellets and how consistent they are. That's another story entirely.

Thanks for the good info and quick response. You are the first person that I have talked to that could see that muzzle effect. Good data on gripping with all of your fingers. Many years ago I had a hand injury and learned that the bottom 2 finger are the power fingers for gripping. The pellet consistency you brought up raises a question. Do you think all the pellets in a tin or case run come from 1 die? Do you think powder burner bullets come from 1 die? I have background in this area and know the precision specs for die making. I am working on a sizable project that uses unique theory. Many people are not comfortable having a conversation about theory. I won't bore you with the details. Thanks again.

 

[rsfrid]

Thanks for the good info and quick response. You are the first person that I have talked to that could see that muzzle effect. Good data on gripping with all of your fingers. Many years ago I had a hand injury and learned that the bottom 2 finger are the power fingers for gripping. The pellet consistency you brought up raises a question. Do you think all the pellets in a tin or case run come from 1 die? Do you think powder burner bullets come from 1 die? I have background in this area and know the precision specs for die making. I am working on a sizable project that uses unique theory. Many people are not comfortable having a conversation about theory. I won't bore you with the details. Thanks again.

The only part of this I feel qualified to discuss is the consistency of manufacture of pellets or bullets. Lots of folks here swear by JSB pellets — one of the world's largest and most popular manufacturers. However for a high degree of accuracy, repeatability, and consistency of shot placement, their runs are too variable. I don't feel it makes any difference between lots or tins. It's not at all like Ely 22 lr ammo at all. I weight sort every pellet in a tin and don't even look to see lot numbers. I then sort by head size. I have never received a single pellet from JSB that is the head size reported on the tin. Always way over size. All this said, my rifles and pistols don't seem to be sensitive to head size (unless running way undersize) but I try to keep every pellet in a shot string the same head size and close weight tolerance. I still get fliers, but not as much. But then accuracy is what I am after. I don't hunt — I shoot paper. And a flier for me is the shot that makes a perfect group not be round!

 

[MRaccurate]

The only part of this I feel qualified to discuss is the consistency of manufacture of pellets or bullets. Lots of folks here swear by JSB pellets — one of the world's largest and most popular manufacturers. However for a high degree of accuracy, repeatability, and consistency of shot placement, their runs are too variable. I don't feel it makes any difference between lots or tins. It's not at all like Ely 22 lr ammo at all. I weight sort every pellet in a tin and don't even look to see lot numbers. I then sort by head size. I have never received a single pellet from JSB that is the head size reported on the tin. Always way over size. All this said, my rifles and pistols don't seem to be sensitive to head size (unless running way undersize) but I try to keep every pellet in a shot string the same head size and close weight tolerance. I still get fliers, but not as much. But then accuracy is what I am after. I don't hunt — I shoot paper. And a flier for me is the shot that makes a perfect group not be round!