N/A Inertia Assisted, Lightweight Top Hat

[Sqwirl57]

thinking about the sliding weight verses impact damage (brass example ). What if you shape the weight more like a internal combustion engine valve , spreading the impact point to a larger area? Less damage per SQ inch .

I shortened the stroke of the weight, added a plug to soften the blow, and removed the forward breather and so far so good it hasn't seized. I do get the feeling that @Mycapt65 is correct about it not removing a ton of weight from the actual piston but I can't quite put my finger on why I think he is correct. It still may be functional as a dead blow like was brought up earlier by someone else here.

 

[beerthief]

i need to start at #1 and reread .

 

[Sqwirl57]

i need to start at #1 and reread .

You and me both at this point

 

[dormitionskete]

You might also want to consider that as the piston compresses the air, the weight will likely be moving forward. So it's not as if it will go to the back at the beginning of the shot cycle and stay there until the end of the cycle. Probably.

Also, to assume that since you cock the gun with the barrel pointed up that the weight will always be at the back may not be reasonable. (Remember people talking about consistency?) Don't you ever cock the gun, carry it a ways with the muzzle at least slightly inclined downwards?

Just things to consider. I hope this helps.

Cheers.

 

[Sqwirl57]

You might also want to consider that as the piston compresses the air, the weight will likely be moving forward. So it's not as if it will go to the back at the beginning of the shot cycle and stay there until the end of the cycle. Probably.

Also, to assume that since you cock the gun with the barrel pointed up that the weight will always be at the back may not be reasonable. (Remember people talking about consistency?) Don't you ever cock the gun, carry it a ways with the muzzle at least slightly inclined downwards?

Just things to consider. I hope this helps.

Cheers.

You bring up some excellent points there

 

[dormitionskete]

So, whatever happened with this? Have you given up on it? Are you still working on it? Have you come to any conclusions? Just curious.

 

[Sqwirl57]

So, whatever happened with this? Have you given up on it? Are you still working on it? Have you come to any conclusions? Just curious.

Had paying work so this has taken a back seat for now. Preliminary results are good but I'm not 100% convinced they're much better than just having a standard 30g top hat

 

[Steveoo]

I'm interested in your results. In theory it makes total sense. I want to see if it pans out. I had a RX1 which is a Theoben design. Like many the inertia weight was frozen in place. The gun had a lot of problems. I freed the weight and got it working as designed. There was no change in anything so I removed it and there was no change in anything. I eventually got the rifle working well but I never seen any difference with or without the inertia weight. For those familiar with the design it did have the vent hole.. Somehow some of the earlier ones didn't have vent holes.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Steveoo]

I applaud and appreciate inventive engineers that try things like this, either going down a blind alley, or a major advancement for the hobby...either way it's all good.

My own extensive meddling has recently sent me in a different direction, going back to how guns were once made in the 1930s and probably getting it right first time...Those old guns capable of incredible accuracy, but without the aid of scopes I might add.
I'll expand if anyone is interested in my experiments.

 

[fishing43]

I applaud and appreciate inventive engineers that try things like this, either going down a blind alley, or a major advancement for the hobby...either way it's all good.

My own extensive meddling has recently sent me in a different direction, going back to how guns were once made in the 1930s and probably getting it right first time...Those old guns capable of incredible accuracy, but without the aid of scopes I might add.
I'll expand if anyone is interested in my experiments.

Please do

 

[Sqwirl57]

I applaud and appreciate inventive engineers that try things like this, either going down a blind alley, or a major advancement for the hobby...either way it's all good.

My own extensive meddling has recently sent me in a different direction, going back to how guns were once made in the 1930s and probably getting it right first time...Those old guns capable of incredible accuracy, but without the aid of scopes I might add.
I'll expand if anyone is interested in my experiments.

Always interested!

 

[beerthief]

I applaud and appreciate inventive engineers that try things like this, either going down a blind alley, or a major advancement for the hobby...either way it's all good.

My own extensive meddling has recently sent me in a different direction, going back to how guns were once made in the 1930s and probably getting it right first time...Those old guns capable of incredible accuracy, but without the aid of scopes I might add.
I'll expand if anyone is interested in my experiments.

yes i am interested , I started in Airguns with a top line PCP and am working my way back to the beginning .
My next gun i am looking for

 

[dormitionskete]

Yeah, I really like those old springers, too!

---

I've always wondered if some springs on the front of the piston to counter the force of it slamming into the end of the compression chamber would help.

Or, better yet, vent some of that compressed air back against the piston somehow to buffer its forward impact.

The latter would definitely take some serious engineering genius, but it sure would be slick.

 

[Steveoo]

Ok I'll share, but in the past I have taken a bit of a hammering from the commercial tuners whenever I did.
See here's the thing....
We follow trends. The trend then getting accepted as written in stone and sticking with it.

My issue is plastic guides, namely Delrin, or Nylon/Nylatron, Peek etc.
Sure they damp cycles and make the guns cycle feel nicer, but I've never noticed improved accuracy if the Steel guides were well made and well fitting (as they once were in the distant past.
I'm not talking loose fitting rolled Steel guides with a seem, but how they once were, from solid steel, often machined from one piece as part of the trigger block.

There is no doubt that Plastics damp better, but the use of plastic Top hats always reduces velocity.
Everyone clambering for the damped cycle plastics offer, but forgetting to do the deeper testing of what faster flight time to the target represents versus the better damping...
Also the additional weight of Solid steel components versus light weight plastics at deadening the more massive end of the recoil issue....heavy rifles often being better able to handle recoil than lighter ones etc..
So I tested....

One thing that got me started was noticing Pro Sports seemingly doing better when chucking out the tuning house plastic Top hat and going back to the OEM steel one....
Maybe Air Arms got it right when they designed it OEM....just saying...
My testing revealed a sweeter cycling, duller feeling Pro Sport when fitted with the Plastic Top Hat but not one that was actually more accurate. Indeed the steel Top hat gun, hitting closer to 12 proving more accurate if your technique was good.

I also noticed Plastics were expanding and contracting more during extremes of prevailing conditions. Not something I found with Steel components which all exp/cont at same rates ....
Less inextricable misses on a cold morning.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Ok I'll share, but in the past I have taken a bit of a hammering from the commercial tuners whenever I did.
See here's the thing....
We follow trends. The trend then getting accepted as written in stone and sticking with it.

My issue is plastic guides, namely Delrin, or Nylon/Nylatron, Peek etc.
Sure they damp cycles and make the guns cycle feel nicer, but I've never noticed improved accuracy if the Steel guides were well made and well fitting (as they once were in the distant past.
I'm not talking loose fitting rolled Steel guides with a seem, but how they once were, from solid steel, often machined from one piece as part of the trigger block.

There is no doubt that Plastics damp better, but the use of plastic Top hats always reduces velocity.
Everyone clambering for the damped cycle plastics offer, but forgetting to do the deeper testing of what faster flight time to the target represents versus the better damping...
Also the additional weight of Solid steel components versus light weight plastics at deadening the more massive end of the recoil issue....heavy rifles often being better able to handle recoil than lighter ones etc..
So I tested....

One thing that got me started was noticing Pro Sports seemingly doing better when chucking out the tuning house plastic Top hat and going back to the OEM steel one....
Maybe Air Arms got it right when they designed it OEM....just saying...
My testing revealed a sweeter cycling, duller feeling Pro Sport when fitted with the Plastic Top Hat but not one that was actually more accurate. Indeed the steel Top hat gun, hitting closer to 12 proving more accurate if your technique was good.

I also noticed Plastics were expanding and contracting more during extremes of prevailing conditions. Not something I found with Steel components which all exp/cont at same rates ....
Less inextricable misses on a cold morning.

I'm 100% with you. My machining skills are relatively new and still very much learning which is why I use Derlin. Its cheap and if I mess something up it's really no big deal. I will likely start messing with steel soon though

 

[Steveoo]

Yes those old BSAs, particularly the long Tom and the Lincoln Jeffries were often quoted as being able to hit English penny coins out to 50 yards. Guides were solid steel, well fitting, twang minimal.
The Long Tom would often exceed English limits but its traj was flat right out to 50 yds.
Your Light pattern there barely more than a dull thud, making 1/2 inchers at 15 all day long..

It was the improvement of pellets, going hand in hand with the development of plastic components which fooled everyone into buying into the whole plastics revolution...
Just go try high quality modern pellets in some of the. Old steel components guns..

 

[beerthief]

there is a collector in Indiana that said he had an old BSA for me but said it would take a while to find and he is slow so i am waiting .
i can dream of a Long Tom rifle in my hands . A shooter not a museum piece . and definitely not a china reproduction .
Can you name some rifles that are of the old all steel persuasion ?

 

[dormitionskete]

How's this for a stupid crazy idea? Look at how an M-1 Garand works. Drill a hole in the barrel ... instead of at the end like an M-1, something like 1/2 - 2/3 of the way down, more like an AK or M-14. When the pellet passes that gas (in this case, air) port, some of the pressure gets ported back against the piston. Instead of using the gas to cycle the action like in a powder burner, use it to buffer the impact of the piston impacting the end of the compression chamber.

The pellet would likely get a little bit of a boost at the end, just before exiting the barrel. This could be a good thing, or maybe a not so good thing.

Of course, it'd be most practical with a fixed barrel gun like an under lever or side lever. But it could be done. It'd take some serious gunsmithing skills and equipment; but you'd only really be copying a time proven design that's been copied in innumerable other guns for the past almost 100 years.

Would it be cost effective? Eh. Probably not. But maybe it could be made for a reasonable price, as a mod for existing airguns.

One downside to applying this concept to an airgun is that airguns are much more susceptible to atmospheric changes than PB's. I live at 9,000' ASL. What works up here would not necessarily work well down where most of you live, and vice versa. Just simple weather changes also make a big difference ... at least up here. So how consistently it would buffer the action from one shooting session to the next might be questionable. But within a single session, unless the weather changes drastically, it should be consistent enough to pass any reasonable test.

So, is anybody ready to have me committed to a padded room yet?

 

[beerthief]

"So, is anybody ready to have me committed to a padded room yet?"
sorry but you will have to take a number and wait , WE are all ahead of you .

 

[Steveoo]

The Long Tom made the most power, with the longest cylinder.
The Improved Model D was about the most advanced of that group and the nicest looking..
The Lincoln Jeffries was very similar and just as good....simply and earlier version.
Light pattern ran 2 versions similarly ...LIncoln and BSA .
Also an A version very slightly smaller than the LIght pattern.