No, you carry on my friend. Who knows you might just hit on something with the direction you are going in.
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N/A Inertia Assisted, Lightweight Top Hat
- Thread starter Sqwirl57
- Start date
HOLD YOUR HORSEY, MATE!
No, NONE of the prewar BSA or Lincoln Jeffries have well fitting guides. The ONLY guns among them that don't twang are the Sporting patterns that came with a later long skirt piston. And the Long Toms have the same piston. These are all 45 inch guns.
All of the standard length 43 1/2" guns twang and all of the 39 1/2" light patterns twang. The "solid steel guide" is a loose fitting tube pressed into the back block.
You might want to say the springs have been replaced. But no, most all in my collection have the originals. Some round wire, some oval, Sportings and Long Toms with twin counterwound springs. All the originals have the BSA stamp on the ends. Yes, I know my Beezas. Probably 30 in my collection right now. From a little Juvenile pattern all the way up to a Military. A second batch Lincoln Jeffries "H the Lincoln" with cast tang trigger guard and a second batch "BSA Air Rifle". Several IMB, IMD, Club Standards, and more .
How does a 12 ft lb .22 shoot flat out to 50 yards?
Many don't know the turret rearsight is marked on the side for yardage on the Long Toms. If it shot so flat why would you need the lowest one marked "50"?
You might not get the greatest result shooting modern pellets in a prewar BSA .22. You need 5.6mm pellets for the best accuracy, velocity, and smooth firing.
This Yankee has been collecting, working on, and studying BSA prewars almost 40 years. Even before "Algore" invented the internet!
BTW the Fantastic Vintage Airguns Gallery has more information about prewar BSA than you could learn in a month. Awesome pictures of all models. Be careful going on that site! You might get bitten by the collector bug and end up with "The Disease".
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OH , OK . thanks , so what would you recommend , if i wanted as something i can shoot decently "{minute of squirrel "
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I would think that if there are any lessons to be learned from those old BSA's and other antique airguns, it would be with the materials they used, the transfer port size, top hats / guide rods, leather seals, etc. People were smarter back then, and seemed to be less encumbered with pride.
They were also more inclined to make high quality products that one could be proud of, rather than the cheapest junk they can throw together and the charge the absolute most they possibly can for, like we have today.
I would think that a braided spring would give a smoother, less abrupt shot cycle.
If you search the AGN archives, there have been multiple discussions about people's attempts to reduce piston bounce by trying various different diameters for the transfer port. But as I said above, they would be dependent on and / or influenced by altitude and other atmospheric differences.
Has anyone actually proven that the pellet is still in the barrel when the piston makes contact with the end of the compression chamber? "Dirt E Harry" attempts to show otherwise in this video -- although I'm not convinced either way.
But if it can be shown that the pellet is out of the barrel before the end of the piston stroke, that would make a big difference in how this should be approached.
Some other thoughts that have occasionally come to mind to me during this whole discussion is jet aircraft that deploy parachutes or reverse thrusters (redirecting the jet thrust forward) to slow them down on landing. Parachutes obviously are not the answer, but perhaps some sort of braking system on the piston that engages towards the end of the stroke might help.
And perhaps a catch to keep it from rebounding back again after it's made contact at the end of the stroke.
I still think the M-1 Garand type gas piston idea shows the most promise of anything that has come out in this thread; though it will be interesting to see if the original idea that sparked this thread shows any significant benefits.
They were also more inclined to make high quality products that one could be proud of, rather than the cheapest junk they can throw together and the charge the absolute most they possibly can for, like we have today.
I would think that a braided spring would give a smoother, less abrupt shot cycle.
If you search the AGN archives, there have been multiple discussions about people's attempts to reduce piston bounce by trying various different diameters for the transfer port. But as I said above, they would be dependent on and / or influenced by altitude and other atmospheric differences.
Has anyone actually proven that the pellet is still in the barrel when the piston makes contact with the end of the compression chamber? "Dirt E Harry" attempts to show otherwise in this video -- although I'm not convinced either way.
But if it can be shown that the pellet is out of the barrel before the end of the piston stroke, that would make a big difference in how this should be approached.
Some other thoughts that have occasionally come to mind to me during this whole discussion is jet aircraft that deploy parachutes or reverse thrusters (redirecting the jet thrust forward) to slow them down on landing. Parachutes obviously are not the answer, but perhaps some sort of braking system on the piston that engages towards the end of the stroke might help.
And perhaps a catch to keep it from rebounding back again after it's made contact at the end of the stroke.
I still think the M-1 Garand type gas piston idea shows the most promise of anything that has come out in this thread; though it will be interesting to see if the original idea that sparked this thread shows any significant benefits.
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SO , if the pellet is far from the end of the barrel all this shake rattle and roll doesn't mean squat to the trajectory of the pellet ? because the pellet is long gone according to this video . I think i need a second opinion .
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None of this has anything to do with the trajectory of the pellet. This whole discussion -- as far as I can tell -- has been about creating a smoother shot cycle ... based on the widely held notion that the pellet is still in the barrel when the piston reaches the end of the shot cycle.
Maybe that is correct. Maybe it's not. But I would tend to think knowing that for sure would be critical to creating a smoother shot cycle. And if it is outside the barrel, all of this other stuff is a moot point.
Maybe that is correct. Maybe it's not. But I would tend to think knowing that for sure would be critical to creating a smoother shot cycle. And if it is outside the barrel, all of this other stuff is a moot point.
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exactly , i am questioning the validity of the video , and you are also correct in improving the felt shot cycle . what i take from this video is that the piston has traveled far enough to open the valve and release enough air to send the pellet out of the barrel @ 900 FPS , all in that first 1/100 of a second ? would have been interesting if the time stamps could have been from start to finish of the shot cycle .in segments of each movement .
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Yes. And if you folks don't mind, let me throw out something else. Decades ago, when this whole notion came about that the pellet is still in the barrel when the piston comes to the end of its stroke ... how long were the barrels they were using when they came to that conclusion?
Our ProSport has a 9 1/2" barrel, and our HW97K has an 11.8" barrel. They look longer than that, because the former has a barrel shroud and the latter has an LDC. But with the shorter barrels we see on some of our more popular airguns, I can't help but wonder how valid that long-held notion is with these shorter barrels.
I honestly don't know.
Our ProSport has a 9 1/2" barrel, and our HW97K has an 11.8" barrel. They look longer than that, because the former has a barrel shroud and the latter has an LDC. But with the shorter barrels we see on some of our more popular airguns, I can't help but wonder how valid that long-held notion is with these shorter barrels.
I honestly don't know.
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I dont know that the pellet doesn't move at all until the piston stops but I'm sure its somewhere in the barrel still while all of this is happening. The gun recoils the second you pull that trigger from the spring decompressing. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction and whatnot. Keep in mind that the barrel pointing even a fraction of a degree differently will yield vastly different POI down range.
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HMMM wonder if HW would divulge this info ? I think it would take at least 2/3 or more of the piston travel to just build the pressure to open the valve to release the air just to start to put the pellet in motion .
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Must say not in my experience regarding the guides in the old BSAs
My light pattern has a beautiful sliding fit on both the original mainspring and the Knibbs replacement. The tube you are seeing is not because of tube per say, but because they drilled out the guide to accommodate the latch rod of the piston. Shot cycle could possibly be improved with a Delrin guide set, but is best described as a dull thud. So I go with that above the temp sensitivity issues that can come with Delrin and preferring to keep the gun stock. I would probably gain little, or nothing Going Delrin and have total 100 year reliability too.
A fellow here with his shot Chipmunk might be able to confirm the cycle I mention.
There's a a great video of guy shooting 1/2 inch groups with one, with barely anything coming from the gun.
The twin mainsprings they employed at one point even went to the trouble of winding the springs in opposite directions and employing a central duel Top hat to locate the spring ends, rather than relying on spring ends touching each other. Lightly tuned, and preferably with a BSA aperture sight, I have matched any modern springer when un scoped...all things being equal.
Only bettering these old guns when scoping up the modern gun.
Modern Superdomes used by virtually everyone in England who collects these, completely out performing the true 5.6 ers of yesterday year like Pylarm/ Wasp, Bulldog and the terrible Lanes. To be fair the Superdomes do push 4.6 and 5.6 dia (despite what it says on the tin) but the constancy of the pellets takes it over what you might find in the tins of the very last of the old pellet stocks of the those venerable old pellets listed. Lanes may have been the worst pellets of all time.
A note on tolerances and what I've been saying for years.
We have gone too tight on tolerancing. A tight tol does not allow for temp shifts and cross fitting when ordering Spares. I'd much rather have a slightly looser tol than an over tight guide on a warm day playing havoc with vel or a broken guide if Delrin and too tight.
The Germans always went for overly tight tols with their tanks, which often played havoc with their tanks in the field, not to mention many left stranded when spares didn't fit.
Maybe a touch of twang is ok...maybe the dull thud of tight tol is bringing the mystery issues that we all Chase our tails for with the modern gun.
Recently Tony Leach who developed the sleeveless piston, switching back to steel and PBronze Top hats.
Ivan Handcock and STeve Pope resisting the switch to plastics until trend and cost forced it, always had their reservations.
My light pattern has a beautiful sliding fit on both the original mainspring and the Knibbs replacement. The tube you are seeing is not because of tube per say, but because they drilled out the guide to accommodate the latch rod of the piston. Shot cycle could possibly be improved with a Delrin guide set, but is best described as a dull thud. So I go with that above the temp sensitivity issues that can come with Delrin and preferring to keep the gun stock. I would probably gain little, or nothing Going Delrin and have total 100 year reliability too.
A fellow here with his shot Chipmunk might be able to confirm the cycle I mention.
There's a a great video of guy shooting 1/2 inch groups with one, with barely anything coming from the gun.
The twin mainsprings they employed at one point even went to the trouble of winding the springs in opposite directions and employing a central duel Top hat to locate the spring ends, rather than relying on spring ends touching each other. Lightly tuned, and preferably with a BSA aperture sight, I have matched any modern springer when un scoped...all things being equal.
Only bettering these old guns when scoping up the modern gun.
Modern Superdomes used by virtually everyone in England who collects these, completely out performing the true 5.6 ers of yesterday year like Pylarm/ Wasp, Bulldog and the terrible Lanes. To be fair the Superdomes do push 4.6 and 5.6 dia (despite what it says on the tin) but the constancy of the pellets takes it over what you might find in the tins of the very last of the old pellet stocks of the those venerable old pellets listed. Lanes may have been the worst pellets of all time.
A note on tolerances and what I've been saying for years.
We have gone too tight on tolerancing. A tight tol does not allow for temp shifts and cross fitting when ordering Spares. I'd much rather have a slightly looser tol than an over tight guide on a warm day playing havoc with vel or a broken guide if Delrin and too tight.
The Germans always went for overly tight tols with their tanks, which often played havoc with their tanks in the field, not to mention many left stranded when spares didn't fit.
Maybe a touch of twang is ok...maybe the dull thud of tight tol is bringing the mystery issues that we all Chase our tails for with the modern gun.
Recently Tony Leach who developed the sleeveless piston, switching back to steel and PBronze Top hats.
Ivan Handcock and STeve Pope resisting the switch to plastics until trend and cost forced it, always had their reservations.
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Oh, yeah, I'm quite well aware of that. HW97K's have a horrible design element. Ours has been a complete lemon from day one.
One of the biggest problems is the way they attach the barrel assembly to the receiver tube. Two spot welds. If those come loose, or were bad in the first place, you will have very erratic POI. Trust me. Been there!
I'm on my third repair of this now.
You would be wasting your time trying to talk with Weihrauch. I posed a high altitude question to them some years ago. We've had a few discussions with their engineers and with Hans Hermann Weihrauch.
Der Kunde ist König. Aber nur im Ausland. - The customer is king. But only outside of Germany.
You're not likely to get much assistance from them.
At least, I never have.
And yes, they are aware of their lousy barrel assembly to receiver tube design as well.
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I really think a lot of what people describe as "springer" problems are really either bad welds, ever so slight lockup problems, etc.
If you watch this list long enough, you see comments like, "Oh, they had a bad batch of barrels." "Oh, they had a bad batch of welds."
Well, that's all fine and well ... unless you're the customer stuck with their junk.
If you watch this list long enough, you see comments like, "Oh, they had a bad batch of barrels." "Oh, they had a bad batch of welds."
Well, that's all fine and well ... unless you're the customer stuck with their junk.
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IF and that is a big IF , ultra high speed cameras could be employed and several indicators placed on the gun and along side the gun one could get the measurements and times of individual movements and direction of said movements to get the timings of the gun and exactly when (time) the pellet exits the barrel . , but then i see a lot of hunting video's of the pellet traveling to the target , maybe more do-able than i thought .
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Always remember overly tight tolerances was the wrong direction in any given design.
This works against logical thinking, but it's the variables that work against it.
Think Japanese production and the reliability of Japanese cars. They laugh at the worlds shift to ever tighter tolerancing. It's the wrong direction and has no better example in Springer tuning. It's where all the inextricable issues are coming from...
Go with a slightly more open tolerance and a hint of twang and you will see shot to shot consistency rise across the shift of seasonal temp shift, even if the gun does not sound quite so dead...
This works against logical thinking, but it's the variables that work against it.
Think Japanese production and the reliability of Japanese cars. They laugh at the worlds shift to ever tighter tolerancing. It's the wrong direction and has no better example in Springer tuning. It's where all the inextricable issues are coming from...
Go with a slightly more open tolerance and a hint of twang and you will see shot to shot consistency rise across the shift of seasonal temp shift, even if the gun does not sound quite so dead...
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Yeah. Look at an M-1 Garand or M-14 vs an M-16. You get the slightest bit of dirt into an M-16, it'll jam. As an armourer, I once had to take a hammer to one to get a seized bolt unstuck. Garands and AK's (which are just ugly Garand copy-cats) have loose tolerances, and well earned reputations for their reliability.
I think you're probably right. The same is probably true for air guns.
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interesting , ill keep this in mind . maybe why so many springers come very twangy, longer life ? really i think it only bother us to a point .
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