HW/Weihrauch Installed an ARH Hornet kit in my HW85, and now it won't cock...?

[razor62]

I recently purchased a couple of used (very used) HW85's. One of them was functional and the other had a broken cocking shoe and a blown out stock at the end of the cocking slot in the forend due to the cocking lever being forced through it when the shoe let go.
Anyway, I stripped the rifle and repaired the stock while waiting for the new shoe to arrive and found nothing unusual other than a damaged piston sleeve that I was able to rotate within the piston in order to expose an undamaged portion of the sleeve.
from there, I installed an ARH Hornet kit which I ordered 2 of specifically for both rifles.
I'm no stranger to working on springers Weihruachs especially, so I don't believe that I'm overlooking anything obvious. There are no spacers in the piston or on the spring guide. The cocking shoe fits and functions perfectly within the piston slot. The trigger will set and release when removed from the rifle. I did cock the trigger before reassembly and touched it off after it was installed. I was also careful to hold the safety in place while inserting the trigger group.
I'm beginning to suspect that the kits supplied are the wrong ones. There are both a delrin spring guide as well as a tophat on the new Hornet kits. There was about 2" of preload before the end cap threads would engage. I tried to see if the spring is coil bound when the barrel is in the fully cocked position but the piston sleeve obstructs my view.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Sqwirl57]

If you count the coils and multiply that by the coil diameter you will get the compressed length. If the compressed length is longer than the stroke + piston cavity depth you're going to be coil bound. Also, I would remove the top hat and outer sleeve and drop them into the piston. If the sleeves base isn't flush with the piston you may be bottoming out there as well. You have some wiggle room but I'm not sure how much. When I had that issue on my TX it was next to none.

As a side note, if the safety isn't ar least popping out, its a safe bet it isn't a sear issue and an issue with the spring/guides. If the safety is popping, I would suspect a trigger adjustment problem.

 

[A.G.R]

does The trigger try to click..sounds like coil bound.. 85 are tad different than 95 .. I’d bet .100 off the top hat solves it. Also check the piston liner isn’t hitting the step down part on the guide.

 

[Deerstalker]

FWIW, I put the ARH kit in my HW95. The HW95 had a piston liner with a thin SS washer in front of the spring, (no tophat), and a rear guide. I installed the ARH kit which had a tophat, spring and rear guide. I also reinstalled the thin SS washer in front of the ARH tophat. The cocking cycle is soundless until the piston latches in the trigger.

The Weihrauch factory HW95 spring has 33 coils but I failed to count the ARH spring before install.

 

[thumper]

First thing I would do:

Put the gun together with everything but the spring, and make sure it cocks and the trigger releases. If it does, you are coil bound.

If it still doesn't work, you may have trigger problems or something else going on.

Did you install a new style cocking shoe? If so make sure it is long enough to push the piston back far enough to engage the trigger and that it's not binding anywhere.

All the ideas I have for now. Hope you figure it out

 

[razor62]

If you count the coils and multiply that by the coil diameter you will get the compressed length. If the compressed length is longer than the stroke you're going to be coil bound. Also, I would remove the top hat and outer sleeve and drop them into the piston. If the sleeves base isn't flush with the piston you may be bottoming out there as well. You have some wiggle room but I'm not sure how much. When I had that issue on my TX it was next to none.

As a side note, if the safety isn't ar least popping out, its a safe bet it isn't a sear issue and an issue with the spring/guides. If the safety is popping, I would suspect a trigger adjustment problem.

I do have a spring compressor that I made for pre-setting springs before installation. I suppose that I could used that to get a length and then measure the stroke or even the original spring. Thank you.

 

[razor62]

does The trigger try to click..sounds like coil bound.. 85 are tad different than 95 .. I’d bet .100 off the top hat solves it. Also check the piston liner isn’t hitting the step down part on the guide.

No indication that the trigger is trying to engage. I'm leaning toward having too long of a spring or that the top hat or guide are slightly oversized. Thanks for your input.

 

[razor62]

First thing I would do:

Put the gun together with everything but the spring, and make sure it cocks and the trigger releases. If it does, you are coil bound.

If it still doesn't work, you may have trigger problems or something else going on.

Did you install a new style cocking shoe? If so make sure it is long enough to push the piston back far enough to engage the trigger and that it's not binding anywhere.

All the ideas I have for now. Hope you figure it out

That's a good idea. I compared the old (2- pc) cocking shoe with the one piece replacement and they appear to be the same.

 

[A.G.R]

Then it’s coil bound. Or hitting the rear guide. Edge. First find that out by taking the spring off the guide and installing it and dry cocking it
if it latches take .125 off the top hat.

 

[razor62]

I'll shoot Jim at ARH an email and see what his thoughts are. I'd like to double check with him anyway to be sure that the correct kis were shipped.
Thanks for all of the input folks. Much appreciated.

 

[thumper]

No indication that the trigger is trying to engage. I'm leaning toward having too long of a spring or that the top hat or guide are slightly oversized. Thanks for your input.

While it's assembled, you can also remove the trigger pack and cock the gun, and kinda eyeball measure to see if the sear notch in the piston is coming back far enough.

You can cock the trigger out of the gun, measure from the rear pin hole to the sear face that the piston rod pushes against to get an idea.

 

[thumper]

That's a good idea. I compared the old (2- pc) cocking shoe with the one piece replacement and they appear to be the same.

I only mention it because there was a bit of a conundrum a while back when the new sintered looking "upgraded" cocking shoes came out. Originally there were two part numbers, one for the HW80 tube size and one for the HW95 tube sizes.

And last time I went to order one, there was only one part number (the same)for both which I didn't like the sound of lol.

I put one in my old R10 and it didn't fit great, but I can't remember what I ended up doing. I half assembled it and tossed it in a corner.

 

[razor62]

While it's assembled, you can also remove the trigger pack and cock the gun, and kinda eyeball measure to see if the sear notch in the piston is coming back far enough.

You can cock the trigger out of the gun, measure from the rear pin hole to the sear face that the piston rod pushes against to get an idea.

That's a great idea. Thank you!!!

 

[silverstreak]

If it has an older screw on scope mount make sure you have an older type piston with the slot cut in the skirt- it clears the screws.
Over tightening the rear trigger guard screw on a Rekord trigger can bind it.
Have read the new cocking shoes do need some wood cleareance at the rear of some of the older stocks.

 

[A.G.R]

Silver is correct. I should have saw that ..
wood MUST BE REMOVED FROM INSIDE THE STOCK FOR THE NIPPLE TO CLEAR TO COCK ON OLDER STOCKS.

If it has an older screw on scope mount make sure you have an older type piston with the slot cut in the skirt- it clears the screws.
Over tightening the rear trigger guard screw on a Rekord trigger can bind it.
Have read the new cocking shoes do need some wood cleareance at the rear of some of the older stocks.

 

[razor62]

does The trigger try to click..sounds like coil bound.. 85 are tad different than 95 .. I’d bet .100 off the top hat solves it. Also check the piston liner isn’t hitting the step down part on the guide.

Congratulations, my friend! You win the prize today. You're suggestion that the shoulder on the spring guide might be holding up on the piston liner was on the money. I trimmed the liner back by about 1/4" and BINGO!!!! Problem solved.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice. Once again, you guys came through.

 

[A.G.R]

Congratulations, my friend! You win the prize today. You're suggestion that the shoulder on the spring guide might be holding up on the piston liner was on the money. I trimmed the liner back by about 1/4" and BINGO!!!! Problem solved.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice. Once again, you guys came through.

Been there once in my time. Glad you got it figured out
always wanted an older screw in rear block 85 since I sold my R10(same gun but Beeman branded)