invasive

[Bedrock Bob]

Throw them in with the goats, pigs, and Axis deer…. and you’d have an entirely new ecosystem.

As it is now, there are more Axis deer on Maui than there are permanent residents. Their population increases by 25-35% every year. They don’t get any “winter kill”. There are ZERO predators. The Does come into cycle all times of the year, and I believe almost every doe I shot was carrying a fawn.

That being said…. If you were to cull just Does with an air rifle (75-120 lbs), what gun/caliber would you shoot?

I’m leaning toward Panthera .35.

I don't know the rifles, their velocities nor the characteristics of the projectiles. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about it and why.

I'd shoot them with a Sako rifle chambered in .223 remington with a 42 grain bullet. I know how much velocity I need to make the bullet perform and what my effective range is. I'd feel confident I could kill those little guys out to 250 with every shot. I could get 400 if I used a different bullet but I'd worry more about ricochet and what might be behind the target.

I know an airgun slug isn't going nearly that fast. But it probably does not take 2000 fps to get bullet performance either.

Im not sure how a guy would go about choosing an airgun for a particular animal. I guess that depends more on the bullet performance at a given velocity and compared to the maximum range you need. I just don't know anything about the projectiles you shoot nor the velocity involved. So I don't have enough knowledge to hazard a guess.

 

[Coinwa]

My question about gun/caliber was to the general AGN public…. as I have exactly ZERO experience shooting big game with a pellet gun. You and I are in the same dingy there.

.22 cal is not legal to shoot big game in HI (my understanding), so I took my “predator” rifle. Pictured is a 6mm Creedmoor, it was plenty of gun, even at 400+.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

My question about gun/caliber was to the general AGN public…. as I have exactly ZERO experience shooting big game with a pellet gun. You and I are in the same dingy there.

.22 cal is not legal to shoot big game in HI (my understanding), so I took my “predator” rifle. Pictured is a 6mm Creedmoor, it was plenty of gun, even at 400+.

Then you posed the perfect question. I look forward to the answers. I betcha that lizard hunting rascal could set us straight about calibers and bullet performance.

I too like the 6mm. My varmint rifle is chambered in .243 win. Mine is an old mod 700 40X Remington VS with a bull barrel.

I shoot a 6mm BR too. It's a PIA to load for the BR but it's wicked accurate. 600 yard prairie dogs with both of them. It's on the encore frame. I don't shoot it much.

The 30-06 is what I hunt with. Versatile as hell. Savage 110. Anything from rats to buffalo and/or bison. Tack driver. A guy does not need anything except that rifle and a spring air gun to practice with.

When Berger bullets reached $1 each for my '06 I bought a Diana 34. Now I have shot and broken more air rifles than you can haul away in a pickup. About 600k shots give or take a few thousand. But I can pick up that '06 and hit a beer bottle offhand at 100 yards almost every time.

My average pattern has shrunk a foot in the past 5 years. I would have worn out 10 barrels and spent a hundred thousand bucks to get that kind of practice with a powderburner. And I'm talking .22. A Rockefeller couldn't afford to shoot the '06 like that.

I praise the air rifle. My ugly Hatsans laying broken in pieces strewn about the shop are like casualties in the battle to be a better shot. The Diana's and the HW's have all been wounded but are still fighting. New Hatsans arrive as reinforcements on a semi annual basis. They are all heroes.

There should be a special holiday for air rifles. To honor the fallen, praise those still in service and help us remember the brave airguns that have made us the rodent killing machines that we are today.

Maybe I shoulda been a politician.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

Throw them in with the goats, pigs, and Axis deer…. and you’d have an entirely new ecosystem.

As it is now, there are more Axis deer on Maui than there are permanent residents. Their population increases by 25-35% every year. They don’t get any “winter kill”. There are ZERO predators. The Does come into cycle all times of the year, and I believe almost every doe I shot was carrying a fawn.

That being said…. If you were to cull just Does with an air rifle (75-120 lbs), what gun/caliber would you shoot?

I’m leaning toward Panthera .35.

I've seen guys use .25 gauntlet for "pest" deer and take them out at 50yds.

But I would stick to .30 or higher. The more precise the gun the more you can get away with the caliber choice. Here in florida it's .30 cal for deer and gators, .20 for turkey.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

I don't know the rifles, their velocities nor the characteristics of the projectiles. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about it and why.

I'd shoot them with a Sako rifle chambered in .223 remington with a 42 grain bullet. I know how much velocity I need to make the bullet perform and what my effective range is. I'd feel confident I could kill those little guys out to 250 with every shot. I could get 400 if I used a different bullet but I'd worry more about ricochet and what might be behind the target.

I know an airgun slug isn't going nearly that fast. But it probably does not take 2000 fps to get bullet performance either.

Im not sure how a guy would go about choosing an airgun for a particular animal. I guess that depends more on the bullet performance at a given velocity and compared to the maximum range you need. I just don't know anything about the projectiles you shoot nor the velocity involved. So I don't have enough knowledge to hazard a guess.

My question about gun/caliber was to the general AGN public…. as I have exactly ZERO experience shooting big game with a pellet gun. You and I are in the same dingy there.

.22 cal is not legal to shoot big game in HI (my understanding), so I took my “predator” rifle. Pictured is a 6mm Creedmoor, it was plenty of gun, even at 400+.

For shooting big game with air guns you're going to want something fast, heavy and big enough to cause maximum bleeding and penetration. Airgun slugs don't beahve like their supersonic counterparts so they don't really induce that shock damage or explosive damage that a ballistic tip .243 varmint load would.

I myself have a .243 that I've had for year, but haven't really got the chance to go hunting for large game. I used to have a 45-70 govt while stationed in Alaska and currently have a ln ar in 556, 17hmr and a 17wsm. I would assume my 17wsm would have more than enough juice to take down those deer in Hawaii. And if I could shoot iguanas here with my 17hmw or 17wsm I would, they would only need 1 shot and it wouldn't matter where they got hit.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

For shooting big game with air guns you're going to want something fast, heavy and big enough to cause maximum bleeding and penetration. Airgun slugs don't beahve like their supersonic counterparts so they don't really induce that shock damage or explosive damage that a ballistic tip .243 varmint load would.

I myself have a .243 that I've had for year, but haven't really got the chance to go hunting for large game. I used to have a 45-70 govt while stationed in Alaska and currently have a ln ar in 556, 17hmr and a 17wsm. I would assume my 17wsm would have more than enough juice to take down those deer in Hawaii. And if I could shoot iguanas here with my 17hmw or 17wsm I would, they would only need 1 shot and it wouldn't matter where they got hit.

Excellent!

I was reading up on this today. Saw several charts and opinions. Saw some really neat hardware. I'm anxious to shoot a PCP and see what it's all about.

All our game here are whoppers. Javelina is about as small as it gets. If I could figure out a game to play with a PCP I could probably talk myself into one.

Javelina isn't it. You can easily kill one with a bow or a 22 pistol. I don't shoot coyotes. Lots of other critters but no fun shooting them. Just collared dove and grackle. I figure I could kill lots of those with a spring gun if my heart was in it.

I'm not sure of the laws here either. I need to do more research.

I almost wish a horde of invasive lizards would show up tomorrow. I'd have an excuse for another obsession.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

Excellent!

I was reading up on this today. Saw several charts and opinions. Saw some really neat hardware. I'm anxious to shoot a PCP and see what it's all about.

All our game here are whoppers. Javelina is about as small as it gets. If I could figure out a game to play with a PCP I could probably talk myself into one.

Javelina isn't it. You can easily kill one with a bow or a 22 pistol. I don't shoot coyotes. Lots of other critters but no fun shooting them. Just collared dove and grackle. I figure I could kill lots of those with a spring gun if my heart was in it.

I'm not sure of the laws here either. I need to do more research.

I almost wish a horde of invasive lizards would show up tomorrow. I'd have an excuse for another obsession.

https://www.pyramydair.com/airgun-map/#NM

Idk how current pyramyair is but this should help a bit. The good thing about pcps is just quiet they can truly be compared to everything.

 

[Coinwa]

I’ve had a lot of coyotes run off packing .17’s of all manner…. I’d not be chasing big game with one of any ilk. I’m thinking the perfect Maui Axis cartridge is .25-06ish. 100 grainer at 3300 would suffice. I shot 103s at just under 3k. Deer pictured was shot broadside on a dead run at 300 and change, that bullet is still in orbit for all I know. I only caught one bullet out of a dozen deer…. that one was shot at just over 400, running straight away from us. I dialed for 400, and when her head hit the crosshairs I hit the switch. Bullet entered about an inch right of the ring-piece, and ended up in the hide after it broke the left shoulder. Some heavy lifting for a 103, I was impressed. That same bullet stopped in a 125 pound Cougar a couple years back.

I’m leaning toward something in the .45 cal range, pushing 300+ fpe. I’ve shot a lot of stuff with muzzleloaders…. so I’m thinking of them in that light.

Thanks for the info Jace.

 

[coastal drifter]

Excellent!

I was reading up on this today. Saw several charts and opinions. Saw some really neat hardware. I'm anxious to shoot a PCP and see what it's all about.

All our game here are whoppers. Javelina is about as small as it gets. If I could figure out a game to play with a PCP I could probably talk myself into one.

Javelina isn't it. You can easily kill one with a bow or a 22 pistol. I don't shoot coyotes. Lots of other critters but no fun shooting them. Just collared dove and grackle. I figure I could kill lots of those with a spring gun if my heart was in it.

I'm not sure of the laws here either. I need to do more research.

I almost wish a horde of invasive lizards would show up tomorrow. I'd have an excuse for another obsession.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

I’ve had a lot of coyotes run off packing .17’s of all manner…. I’d not be chasing big game with one of any ilk. I’m thinking the perfect Maui Axis cartridge is .25-06ish. 100 grainer at 3300 would suffice. I shot 103s at just under 3k. Deer pictured was shot broadside on a dead run at 300 and change, that bullet is still in orbit for all I know. I only caught one bullet out of a dozen deer…. that one was shot at just over 400, running straight away from us. I dialed for 400, and when her head hit the crosshairs I hit the switch. Bullet entered about an inch right of the ring-piece, and ended up in the hide after it broke the left shoulder. Some heavy lifting for a 103, I was impressed. That same bullet stopped in a 125 pound Cougar a couple years back.

I’m leaning toward something in the .45 cal range, pushing 300+ fpe. I’ve shot a lot of stuff with muzzleloaders…. so I’m thinking of them in that light.

Thanks for the info Jace.

The .45 is a great option, spcially if you're going the air force route, and so is the .308 both are very well proven platforms. Just know you will have to get MUCH closer to make your shots ethical.

Airforce.45 cal carbine will push mid 400fpe, the full length I believe will do about twice that power.

I don't remember what the 308 is putting out.

Gotcha, I've had the opposite experience from you shooting yotes with the 17 and I've found thay it really just depends on the projectile you use and where you hit them. With the 17wsm it really hasn't mattered.

 

[Coinwa]

Having killed over 100 coyotes a year, for close to a decade straight…. I have a very healthy respect for their toughness and tenacity. If I’m going rimfire, it’s gonna be well inside 100 yards.

I see the airgun as a way to circumvent Hawaii’s stupid suppressor ban, and kill a couple deer from herds at night, without putting them on high alert. I’m thinking most shots well inside 75 yards. Recovery while preferred is not entirely necessary.

I was thinking Airforce… but a repeater would be preferred.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

Having killed over 100 coyotes a year, for close to a decade straight…. I have a very healthy respect for their toughness and tenacity. If I’m going rimfire, it’s gonna be well inside 100 yards.

I see the airgun as a way to circumvent Hawaii’s stupid suppressor ban, and kill a couple deer from herds at night, without putting them on high alert. I’m thinking most shots well inside 75 yards. Recovery while preferred is not entirely necessary.

I was thinking Airforce… but a repeater would be preferred.

If a repeater is preferred then I would suggest either the bulldog or the senacas. I believe @Scotay42 has an eagleclaw in .35 and it's putting out 200fpe with hybrid slugs in power setting 2 of 5

 

[Scotay42]

I have a CapArms Recluse .357 that i will make a deal on with plenty of ammo as well. It is a single shot,but very easy to use power level 1-4. Just under 200fpe on setting 2 and 350fpe on setting 4. It has not been ammo picky, just pick the right power level.

 

[Peashooter]

As far as i know, as a regular dumb Dane.
Aside for meteor impact, no one but humans hunting for some reason have wiped out so many species, and then on top of that come the ones we are not even hunting but just wipe out in our quest to mold the world to suit us.

Regarding rats, there is a natural substance that render them unable to reproduce, the problem is this compound cost more than gold in weight.
Thankfully Danish scientists modified a yeast to make this compound, and it is now quite affordable, and very effective

The world can thank us later.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Javelina are not much challenge. You can shoot them at range if you want to. But it's easy to get within 20 yards. Much closer if you really want to. Sit still and wait and they will come right up to you and sniff your boots.

Shooting over feed is a big sin in the western tradition. I'm not judging. Just saying I wouldn't shoot a game animal over feed. That shot would be illegal in New Mexico. It's fair chase only here. That's the game I play. But others can do whatever they want.

You could kill one with a pencil in his neck if you wanted to. They are super curious. I've got close enough to touch one on several occasions. No food involved. If I had some I think he would have taken it out of my hand.

A bow is fun with javelina. I've taken them with a .22 handgun. They have thin skin and are super easy to kill. For me they are really not the sport animal that would justify a different weapon.

The natives in Hawaii hunt hogs 10x that size barefoot with a stick. That's more like a sporting challenge to me.


We do have a problem with feral hogs. Those rascals can be difficult to locate and tough to set up a shot. They aren't in farmland with ATV roads everywhere like in Texas. They are a huge problem. I've shot many and you could hunt them with a PCP if you were so inclined. But it certainly would not be the gun I would hunt with.

I know a spot where there are hundreds of turtles. You could shoot out to 150 yards. You couldn't shoot a firearm in this spot. But you could shoot an air rifle all day every day for months and not run out of targets. The heads are tiny. Their backs are armor plated. They are half submerged at the surface. That seems like the best PCP target I can come up with around here.

I get a kick out of shooting from a boat. Bowfishing carp is a passion. Frogs too.

There is a guy on that show "swamp people" He's a fairly unimpressive cat with a garish rifle that misses a lot of simple shots on alligators. But he shoots off the bow of the boat and that's pretty cool. I think a PCP would be cool from the bow of the boat sniping bullfrogs and turtles. Maybe even carp at the surface when they come up.

I think a .22 cal would work just fine. One that could hit a nickel at 100 yards would give you enough range to play with. A pair of binoculars to spot. You could have a bunch of fun and stay in targets all day. Set some lines and catch catfish while you were plinking. There are plenty of rock squirrels on the banks and those would present a target too.

If I were to invest in a PCP I think that would be the game. Off the bow of the boat in the morning before the waves kicked up. When the water got too rough for an accurate shot you could transition to the bow.

I think I'll take the springer out and try it. If I can't get enough range or impact to be effective I'm going to take someone with a PCP out and see if it's a thing. It's the only game I can think of that would justify a new gun and all that goes with it.

Urban prairie dogs in Santa Fe was a big thing. Dozens of guys shot them out of their truck windows at intersections with short PCP's. They had a club going and had contests. Someone in traffic saw a guy take one in a median while stopped at a stoplight. It became a huge issue and a few guys got in trouble. I admit it wasn't the safest or most ethical hunt but it was pretty cool. I might have been doing it if I'd thought of it before they were busted.

Anyhoo I'm going to give it a shot. Maybe I'll decide to get a PCP going this winter. If I can rig it as a boat gun and modify my bowfishing deck a little it could be a bunch of fun.

 

[Peashooter]

The natives in Hawaii hunt hogs 10x that size barefoot with a stick. That's more like a sporting challenge to me.

The PPl that hunt boar and even bears as i recall, with a few dogs and a Bowie knife,,,,,, that's ballsy in my book.
When i roam the Danish " forrests " at night, i am also packing at least one sizeable piece of steel, CUZ the wolf now back here, even if no attacks reported yet as far as i know, well i will not play dinner without a fight.

I would prefer a 9 mm, but that is wayyyyyyy past what any Dane can be entrusted with.

I am not trusting that a few flashes of a flashlight will make a wolf think different, also those guys often roam in packs that is probably more brave like most are in a group of like-minded beings.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

The PPl that hunt boar and even bears as i recall, with a few dogs and a Bowie knife,,,,,, that's ballsy in my book.
When i roam the Danish " forrests " at night, i am also packing at least one sizeable piece of steel, CUZ the wolf now back here, even if no attacks reported yet as far as i know, well i will not play dinner without a fight.

I would prefer a 9 mm, but that is wayyyyyyy past what any Dane can be entrusted with.

I am not trusting that a few flashes of a flashlight will make a wolf think different, also those guys often roam in packs that is probably more brave like most are in a group of like-minded beings.

Pretty cool my Danish friend!

We have wolves here too. I have heard them close to camp many times. I've seen one only twice. I would never shoot one unless he attacked my dog. Very little risk of that.

They are only in the mountains. This is crazy country that has all types of terrain from deserts to swamps to alpine forest all within a 50km area. So they are never close but never far away.

 

[Peashooter]

Denmark are flat as a pancake, what we call mountains here is really a insult to any real mountain, it is just little berms of dirt pushed up by ice during the last ice age.
Some areas also have a population of moose now, but those are fenced in areas, and the moose are introduced to keep the places " wild "
other fenced in natural preserves will have horses fenced in, and that caused big problems as apparently those have a hard time finding enough food in winter, and winters here now are a lot milder than winters of my childhood in the 70ties.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Denmark are flat as a pancake, what we call mountains here is really a insult to any real mountain, it is just little berms of dirt pushed up by ice during the last ice age.
Some areas also have a population of moose now, but those are fenced in areas, and the moose are introduced to keep the places " wild "
other fenced in natural preserves will have horses fenced in, and that caused big problems as apparently those have a hard time finding enough food in winter, and winters here now are a lot milder than winters of my childhood in the 70ties.

And here it's the opposite. But the same. Big mountains everywhere. The "lowlands" are nearly a mile above sea level.

It has always been dry. But now it's much drier. Lots of changes with plants and animals. Especially insects. Our weather patterns are much different. Water for farming and drinking is scarce.

No fences for thousands of square miles. Millions of acres of public land anyone can use for outdoor activity. You can carry any gun you want just about anywhere you want to. Until 25-30 years ago you could go out for weeks and never see another person.

You can see thousands of elk in a short drive. Big deer. Bear. Turkey. Javelina. All sorts of small animals. All in wild habitat with very little human influence. But that seems to be slipping away rapidly. More people come with much less connection to the land and it does have an impact on everything.

Things are changing everywhere. It's going to look a lot different in the future. But I suppose the future always looks different from the past.

 

[Coinwa]

I’ve been on a Hawaii pig hunt…. It involved a couple Catahoulas and a pit bull. Once the dogs have the pig strung out, someone runs in and stabs it with a knife. It is very effective, though not my cup of tea.

Bob….

What “Western Tradition” are you talking about? Guys have been shooting bears over bait for a couple hundred years in the West.

I’ve been to Texas a few times, and seems to me that shooting pigs and other exotics (another word for invasive, you mentioned Aoudad before) over an actual timed feeder is well within acceptable practice.

How does a “food plot” differ from a bait station? Especially when there’s 6 trail cams keeping track of every deer, and a tree stand on every corner.

Personally… I’d rather not shoot a bear or cat that’s been treed by dogs. I won’t shoot bears over a trash can full of donuts. And I have no use for feeders.

But…. I also won’t dissuade others from doing it, or claim they are violating some kind of mythical “Western Tradition”. Those are legal and acceptable hunting methods, and to each their own.