N/A Is ".177 HIGH POWER" an oxymoron?

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Vana2

Vana2

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May 11, 2015
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Ontario, Canada
A recent thread about a .177 Panthera got me thinking about this again. They are available so there must be a demand for them, I just don't understand why.

In spite of having a couple of them, I've always thought the .177 caliber to be ideal for springers but too small for the power of a typical modern PCP.

Based on personal experience, the small calibers don't seem to "breathe" as well as calibers with larger (bore) volumes. There's a balance between bore diameter and power and efficiency suffers if it's wrong. It's obvious if you have a big-bore airgun with insufficient power for the job - but what about if you're trying to push too much power through a small bore? An example of this might be a PCP that have a greater shot-count in .22 than .177.

Guess that I'm relating to the fact that it's easier to blow through a large pipe than a small one, less resistance even without an obstruction (pellet).

I have two Weihrauch HW100 PCPs, a .177 and a .22. Both shoot well, but the .22 shoots better. Not a scientific description, just an observation after thousands of shots with each. The .177 accuracy and stability improved (was seeing a lot of spiraling) when I detuned it from the factory 19 fpe to 14 fpe... it needed/wanted less power and the design (originally a sub-12 PCP) could handle that.

I've read of problems with High-Power (HP or FAC designated) airguns being tuned down to sub-12 fpe performing poorly. Wouldn't a valve system designed to operate at 130-160 bar be at a disadvantage if it had to work at 80-100 bar? Kinda like running an 8 cylinder engine with 6 sparkplugs? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.

Case in point, a .177 Panthera. The Dynamic block on the Panthera is designed for high power (50 plus fpe). Even with adjusting the plenum and modifying the transfer port and pellet probe, I wonder if it will ever be happy tuned to .177 (accurate, subsonic) power levels with typical pellets. Heavier slugs would be a different consideration (presuming that a suitable liner is available).



I categorize PCPs as low and mid power; normal power and high power related to typical power/caliber figures I've seen as follows...

At the low (.22 caliber) end of PCP power I see "standard" airguns shooting 18 grain pellets at 30ish fpe and the .22 "HP" airguns preferring 25 (and heavier) pellets/slugs for twice that power. I call these general shooting and "small game" rifles and this is my preferred airgun niche.

At the normal power levels there are the .25, .30 (.35?) caliber producing the typical (and optimal?) PCP performance considering power, range, shot-count. These are the long range "coyote" guns.

The high power PCPs are big-bore, large game airguns where where power is everything and all else is what it is.

I don't see a place for the .177. I'm not saying that you can't have an excellent .177 caliber PCP as there's many examples but (by the valve and barrel) they're typically sub-12 fpe airguns. I just don't see the .177 as being a practical caliber in a modern slug capable PCP.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. I'm curious what's your perspective is, please feel free to correct my thinking.

Cheers!
 
Vana2 said:
A recent thread about a .177 Panthera got me thinking about this again. They are available so there must be a demand for them, I just don't understand why.

In spite of having a couple of them, I've always thought the .177 caliber to be ideal for springers but too small for the power of a typical modern PCP.

Based on personal experience, the small calibers don't seem to "breathe" as well as calibers with larger (bore) volumes. There's a balance between bore diameter and power and efficiency suffers if it's wrong. It's obvious if you have a big-bore airgun with insufficient power for the job - but what about if you're trying to push too much power through a small bore? An example of this might be a PCP that have a greater shot-count in .22 than .177.

Guess that I'm relating to the fact that it's easier to blow through a large pipe than a small one, less resistance even without an obstruction (pellet).

I have two Weihrauch HW100 PCPs, a .177 and a .22. Both shoot well, but the .22 shoots better. Not a scientific description, just an observation after thousands of shots with each. The .177 accuracy and stability improved (was seeing a lot of spiraling) when I detuned it from the factory 19 fpe to 14 fpe... it needed/wanted less power and the design (originally a sub-12 PCP) could handle that.

I've read of problems with High-Power (HP or FAC designated) airguns being tuned down to sub-12 fpe performing poorly. Wouldn't a valve system designed to operate at 130-160 bar be at a disadvantage if it had to work at 80-100 bar? Kinda like running an 8 cylinder engine with 6 sparkplugs? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.

Case in point, a .177 Panthera. The Dynamic block on the Panthera is designed for high power (50 plus fpe). Even with adjusting the plenum and modifying the transfer port and pellet probe, I wonder if it will ever be happy tuned to .177 (accurate, subsonic) power levels with typical pellets. Heavier slugs would be a different consideration (presuming that a suitable liner is available).



I categorize PCPs as low and mid power; normal power and high power related to typical power/caliber figures I've seen as follows...

At the low (.22 caliber) end of PCP power I see "standard" airguns shooting 18 grain pellets at 30ish fpe and the .22 "HP" airguns preferring 25 (and heavier) pellets/slugs for twice that power. I call these general shooting and "small game" rifles and this is my preferred airgun niche.

At the normal power levels there are the .25, .30 (.35?) caliber producing the typical (and optimal?) PCP performance considering power, range, shot-count. These are the long range "coyote" guns.

The high power PCPs are big-bore, large game airguns where where power is everything and all else is what it is.

I don't see a place for the .177. I'm not saying that you can't have an excellent .177 caliber PCP as there's many examples but (by the valve and barrel) they're typically sub-12 fpe airguns. I just don't see the .177 as being a practical caliber in a modern slug capable PCP.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. I'm curious what's your perspective is, please feel free to correct my thinking.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
I'm in the process of building a RAW .177 slugger ..I'll let ya see the results when done, good or bad.
Joe
 
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If you have not tried a .177 slugger? You are missing out, they are simply a blast! And no slouch either, you can really pound squirrels and prairie dogs out over 150 yds easy with the right set up. Also and more to your point, if you are ever going to push 16 and 20 grn slugs at 950-1000 fps? You will need a high power gun to do it!
It is very common to be 130-150 bar with a dynamic or Impact to do it, that means a lot of guns simply can’t, especially if they are shorter than a 600mm barrel. Give it a try.
 
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My .177 Wolverine HP begs to differ. Shoots 13.43gr JSB Knock Outs very good at 975 fps for 28 FP. Of course the beauty of using slugs (even at only a .067 BC) at 100 yard it is still going 800 fps for a touch over 19 FP.
IMG_0022.jpeg
 
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zx10wall said:
My .177 Wolverine HP begs to differ. Shoots 13.43gr JSB Knock Outs very good at 975 fps for 28 FP.
View attachment 401524
Click to expand...
And a stock that is sexy a f. That's some really nice grain there.

I've never considered .25 and .30 'normal' power levels for an airgun. To me a 30 fpe .22 is a normal average airgun with decent power. A .177 in the 18-25 fpe range is pretty powerful for it's caliber. Everyone has different needs and .177 is a fine plinking and 50 yard target shooting caliber.
 
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I started with a Dreamline in .17. Quickly found that slugs were what I wanted to use. I’m a long range shooter and that’s where slugs live. With a 500mil pipe I could crank out 13.43 slugs at 1010fps with 150bar on the reg. Ended up with 15gr NSAs smoking at 990fps with 167bar and all the hammer I could muster. It takes a huge amount of pressure and a very snappy valve to get slugs to do what you want them to. Fast forward a year or so and my first Impact. Found myself shooting a 600mil using everything in the 15gr-16gr category at right around 1000-1030fps with some room to spare on the reg (141bar). On the ballistic calculator, they would have less drop out past 125yds as a .25. And with 38fpe, decent stopping power. In fact, the first 2 shots my wife made were with my Impact shooting a 3-3/4” square plate 200yds. I have it on camera. So accuracy is very good and the tune is easy to find. It’s either slug on slug, or a shotgun. Trouble with a .17 is mass. They just loose to much energy when getting out there. And that’s the only reason I’ve resigned my Dreamline to a dedicated .17 gun and both my Impacts have grown up into strapping .22 and .25 bucks.

Another problem, once getting into the 20gr range, they won’t have any accuracy nodes past 950fps or so. That’s just where they seem to stop being nice. That’s from 500mm all the way to 700mil. None of them shot well past 950-960. Why I almost exclusively stayed with 15-16gr slugs. Fast and flat.

Andy
 
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My original point was the reason I believe they even made a .177 at all.

I've got a .177 slug rifle as well. It's a completely different animal. Nothing to scoff at either. Unregged nova star with a hw100 600mm barrel. 28fpe for 80 shots.

.177 slugs have a very flat trajectory. And they retain a ton of speed even at 100 yards.
 
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Jayson said:
If you have not tried a .177 slugger? You are missing out, they are simply a blast! And no slouch either, you can really pound squirrels and prairie dogs out over 150 yds easy with the right set up. Also and more to your point, if you are ever going to push 16 and 20 grn slugs at 950-1000 fps? You will need a high power gun to do it!
It is very common to be 130-150 bar with a dynamic or Impact to do it, that means a lot of guns simply can’t, especially if they are shorter than a 600mm barrel. Give it a try.
Click to expand...
Spot on. I could rant about my Panthera 177 20 grain slug addiction but I’ll drop the mic to the master of 177 mayhem:

Maverick .177 Porker Down

**Before anyone gives me crap about the caliber: I put in the work to make sure this gun is a laser, and to make sure I know what shots I can take with the highest percentage of success. I do my best to put myself in as close as I can to the hogs(under 50 yards), so there is less room for me...
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com
 
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All I have to say is, there are reasons why 416 Rigby rifles were/are popular in Africa. I've watched several videos of guys using a Benjamin Bulldog to kill small deer and act like they're the hammer of Thor, when in fact these people are using weapons in the non +P 38 Special and 45ACP power levels. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.
 
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FelixS said:
Check out Viking Airgunner on YT. He shoots .177 exclusively, has great real world results and recommendations, and is currently working on a video shooting a .177 Panthera. It should be out very soon.
Click to expand...

Peter (Viking Airgunner) is shooting a heavily modified Impact M3 .177 (y) He tried the FX Dynamic .177 700 mm in one of his videos, but that rifle went back to the dealer, because he could not get it to work properly with too big of a spread. That very same rifle is now in the hands of someone else and is performing very well :)🎯
 
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High power is often used to differentiate models.

For instance I just got my Redwolf HP midnight in 177. When checking factory settings and sighting it in many were amazed by the power it was putting out. They had the standard redwolf and were used to that. Even on low I was just at 20fpe.

So the use of "High power" can be very accurate and not a misnomer. It just depends on what you are comparing it to. Is it high power compared to larger calibers or powder burners? Not at all. But it is high power compared to other 177 caliber rifles even those within the same line.
 
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gendoc said:
sometimes i want to performance tune my HW100 in .177 with slugs, but its so accurate and consistent like it is with 10.34gr jsb pellets at about 19 fpe.
its my favorite squirrel and pest bird shooter.
one day i will get another .17 for high power with slugs.
Click to expand...
Leave the tune as is and try some 10.03 Knockouts. You might be surprised.
 
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My .177 does 31 FPE with 13gr JSB knockouts on only 500mm of barrel, if I were to slap a 700mm and upped my reg to ~165 bar it would do 50 FPE.

Taking that further, going unregulated with a full pressure fill, you'd be looking at 67~ FPE. That is definitely not lacking in power as it would surpass many factory .25 caliber air rifles.

-Matt
 
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