I don’t really care either way….I just stated what I would prefer. It’s not a surprise to me that few will agree.
Mike
Mike
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Is Open class suffering a slow death?
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
It’s not hard to start an organization, by the way. If everyone really wants what you guys want, then they will migrate to the new organization. We got tired of arguing about adding 50y BR to Usarb….so we started our own organization.
In the UK….2 separate organizations for wftf and hft seem to be thriving.
Mike
In the UK….2 separate organizations for wftf and hft seem to be thriving.
Mike
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Pretty much the same as the Extreme Field Target game that is in its first year of Gran Prix series with a National Championship to be decided at EBR this year. We had 60 shooters competing at the Utah EFT GP event weekend before last. More clubs will be joining on next year with the four clubs that hosted GP events this year. Minimal rules, 20 to 100 yards, less than 100 FPE, .30 cal max. Easy day.
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I agree Mike.
Xtreme Field Target has a lot of things going for it.
- minimal rules (as you stated)
- equal playing field/no fragmentation of the playing field (everybody shoots from the same position and I've yet to see in an XFT discussion, the type of borderline ARGUMENTS about which shooting position is the easiest/hardest like we've seen in the last 4 pages here)
- the guns (the airgun industry, both sides, are excited about high power guns right now, guns that are pushing the limits. On top of that, a gun appropriate for XFT is also appropriate for hunting, or long range EBR type benchrest shooting, or NLR, or etc. Some of the rigs that people use in regular field target are general use and can be shot to good effect, but many are very specific/specialized field target guns, and just aren't very practical for general use).
- sponsorship (this one will get some blood boiling as I know many regular ft purists think this shouldnt be a part of that game, but......The Utah EFT GP you mention? I believe first place was $850, and it went on down from there. Easier to get 60 shooters to travel from 10 or 12 different states if money is on the line).
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XFT matches are fine, UKHFT matches are fine. WFTF matches are fine. I've shot them all. They all have their place. I've run lots of AAFTA matches, and one WFTF style match, but I still prefer AAFTA style matches (running them and participating in them). Inexpensive targets (AAFTA) vs expensive targets (XFT). Two shots per target (AAFTA) vs one shot per target (UKHFT/WFTF). I started with bucket and sticks, and they are fine, and I'll still use them if they provide a benefit for the given target. In most cases I prefer to sit on the ground with no support aids. Usually that's good enough (visibility and steadiness) and less to deal with.
Let's look at Pistol field Target. Originally there was "Open" and "Hunter". They soon realized that it was not really "Open" and changed the name to "Limited" Pistol. And Limited Pistol has "Limited" participation compared to Hunter Pistol. If they just allowed clicking in Hunter Pistol, Limited Pistol would not be needed.
I don't think Open is dead, though it could use a couple of rule changes so that it really is "Open" Division.
I'd be fine with the following:
1) Allow clicking in Hunter Pistol and rename it Open Pistol, ...and Limited Pistol could go away.
2) Allow high seats and sticks in Open, ...and Hunter Rifle could go away.
Now we just have Open and everybody still gets to shoot the way they are accustomed to, if they so choose.
Let's look at Pistol field Target. Originally there was "Open" and "Hunter". They soon realized that it was not really "Open" and changed the name to "Limited" Pistol. And Limited Pistol has "Limited" participation compared to Hunter Pistol. If they just allowed clicking in Hunter Pistol, Limited Pistol would not be needed.
I don't think Open is dead, though it could use a couple of rule changes so that it really is "Open" Division.
I'd be fine with the following:
1) Allow clicking in Hunter Pistol and rename it Open Pistol, ...and Limited Pistol could go away.
2) Allow high seats and sticks in Open, ...and Hunter Rifle could go away.
Now we just have Open and everybody still gets to shoot the way they are accustomed to, if they so choose.
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Great discussion, thanks to all who have chimed in. As a "new" guy, it's interesting to hear the viewpoints of those with much experience at the game.
FWIW- One of the draws for me (concerning FT in general) is that I can get meaningful practice in my backyard. As much fun as XFT sounds, would rarely have the chance to get any practice at the longer half of the allowed range. One 100 yard public range within driving distance of me- very few lanes (plan on waiting a while, & don't even try starting 30 days before deer season), and unfortunately, frequently populated with dangerous morons. A few private clubs, but they require hefty annual fees & a long wait to get in. On the waiting list for one, was told to expect a couple years...
Very low chance of ever getting better if you can't get realistic practice.
FWIW- One of the draws for me (concerning FT in general) is that I can get meaningful practice in my backyard. As much fun as XFT sounds, would rarely have the chance to get any practice at the longer half of the allowed range. One 100 yard public range within driving distance of me- very few lanes (plan on waiting a while, & don't even try starting 30 days before deer season), and unfortunately, frequently populated with dangerous morons. A few private clubs, but they require hefty annual fees & a long wait to get in. On the waiting list for one, was told to expect a couple years...
Very low chance of ever getting better if you can't get realistic practice.
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Brilliant. Talk about simplifying the whole mess! And VERY strategically presented. I love it.
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I don't think Open is dead, though it could use a couple of rule changes so that it really is "Open" Division.
I'd be fine with the following:
1) Allow clicking in Hunter Pistol and rename it Open Pistol, ...and Limited Pistol could go away.
2) Allow high seats and sticks in Open, ...and Hunter Rifle could go away.
Now we just have Open and everybody still gets to shoot the way they are accustomed to, if they so choose.
Mr. Hull, Open PCP has no where near the numbers it use to have and I would guess that WFTF had a lot to do with that. Open Piston is as close to dead as any class can get. When you can't get 3 people to make a class at a National who wants to win a class that way?
Not sure what your motive would be in suggesting to eliminate the most populated class in AFFTA. Most people like the Hunter class with maybe the exception of scope power to low to accurately range find. I agree the Open class needs some sugar and spice to grow a little and allowing buckets and bipods with the rest of the Open rules would likely pull a few out of the Hunter class and maybe a few of the "Unlimited class".
Bill Day
I'd be fine with the following:
1) Allow clicking in Hunter Pistol and rename it Open Pistol, ...and Limited Pistol could go away.
2) Allow high seats and sticks in Open, ...and Hunter Rifle could go away.
Now we just have Open and everybody still gets to shoot the way they are accustomed to, if they so choose.
Mr. Hull, Open PCP has no where near the numbers it use to have and I would guess that WFTF had a lot to do with that. Open Piston is as close to dead as any class can get. When you can't get 3 people to make a class at a National who wants to win a class that way?
Not sure what your motive would be in suggesting to eliminate the most populated class in AFFTA. Most people like the Hunter class with maybe the exception of scope power to low to accurately range find. I agree the Open class needs some sugar and spice to grow a little and allowing buckets and bipods with the rest of the Open rules would likely pull a few out of the Hunter class and maybe a few of the "Unlimited class".
Bill Day
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Bill,
It does not "eliminate" Hunter class shooters. It consolidates Open and Hunter. They can keep sitting how they like, AND use a higher scope magnification. Open/PCP and Open/Piston shooters get more competition, and the Divison does not die out.
Hunter, Open, Limited, Freestyle - those are just names. Call it whatever you want. I thought that's what you wanted (allow higher scope magnification)? I think "Open" is a better/more-appropriate name for it than "Hunter".
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I shot in the Rockville match mentioned in the topic starter. This is my fist year shooting field target. I shot 32 out of 60 in Rockville but shot 54 out of 68 the day before at the Woburn Mass match. I was dumbfounded I shot so poorly until I saw the match results and realized most hunter class shooters scored low. The bland white targets there in low gray light make the course very difficult. It didn't seem to effect the Open and WFTF shooters who shot normal scores. I'm guessing being able to parallax to 50X has it's advantages on that course while the hunter class struggled in annoyance like I did. LOL. Anyway, I think one reason that most field target shooters are older is that they are the ones that can afford to give up their weekends. The retired shooters in my club are always available to practice and go to matches. The younger members have to work all week and use weekends for those things they cant accomplish during the week. FT isn't a priority...'yet'. As for hunter class dominating matches, I believe it will not only to grow in popularity buy evolve because of it. I've had many discussions with other older shooters that they feel unfairly handicapped by forced kneeling and standing lanes. We don't necessarily want things easier but just 'possible' to do with our old backs and knees. Many have suggested being allowed to shoot offhand on their bucket. Could this be a possible "evolution" in the sport? Whatever, I just love knocking down targets!
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If you want a sport to grow you have to make it applicable to more people . I'm not saying easier just more adaptable IE; choose sitting on a bucket but off hand maybe ? maybe a distance thing , adding an additional 70 yard target for those using Parallax to range the distance and so making the course harder for that privilege. just my rambling brain .
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Please don't shoot the messenger ... Just sharing thoughts here 
Take any competitive sport .. honestly near any ! Within said sport there are rules, regulations and defined requirements one must me able too do.
While omissions of some parts may not be a rule thing, an inability to do some things puts you at a distinct disadvantage to those who can.
You may very well be able to play the game, but only so well
The game we play and speak of is Air Gun Field Target, and like other games follows the construct of the paragraph above.
Taking any game ( Don't be insulted) and dumb it down so the less able can now play an easier game ... No !!
Could we have a class/s by say AGE ? that perhaps carry a handicap scoring miens ? Don't know.
At the clubs level we can do and score any way we wish, add or omit certain shots making all in attendance happy as ... we who are the Match Director wish ... We can, honestly
Air Gun Field target is HARD and with that figuring out how not to have it be Not so hard comes with learned abilities / skills with those that are just more acute to the task at hand than the other guy/s do better. That's what competition is in a nutshell.
At State / GP or National championships I personally feel the full monty of difficulty having Offhand & Kneeling mandatory needs to stay intact.
For at this level of competition, if you can't perform the tasks required you don't for what ever reason or excuse you come with ... have whats required to play the FT game at likely what will be an elevated level. If all have a reason they can't kneel or offhand then the playing field is even again so on and so forth.
We're all getting older, accepting where our limitations lie is the mature thing to do .. No ?
In rethinking my thinking ... Allow Open to use shooting sticks and eliminate Hunter is brilliant !!! Hunter folks would love the big optic option as a bonus.
Come end of the day it becomes a SKILL thing anyways. Not Gun ... not Optics as the hunter class has been proving for years now.
JMO ...
Take any competitive sport .. honestly near any ! Within said sport there are rules, regulations and defined requirements one must me able too do.
While omissions of some parts may not be a rule thing, an inability to do some things puts you at a distinct disadvantage to those who can.
You may very well be able to play the game, but only so well
The game we play and speak of is Air Gun Field Target, and like other games follows the construct of the paragraph above.
Taking any game ( Don't be insulted) and dumb it down so the less able can now play an easier game ... No !!
Could we have a class/s by say AGE ? that perhaps carry a handicap scoring miens ? Don't know.
At the clubs level we can do and score any way we wish, add or omit certain shots making all in attendance happy as ... we who are the Match Director wish ... We can, honestly
Air Gun Field target is HARD and with that figuring out how not to have it be Not so hard comes with learned abilities / skills with those that are just more acute to the task at hand than the other guy/s do better. That's what competition is in a nutshell.
At State / GP or National championships I personally feel the full monty of difficulty having Offhand & Kneeling mandatory needs to stay intact.
For at this level of competition, if you can't perform the tasks required you don't for what ever reason or excuse you come with ... have whats required to play the FT game at likely what will be an elevated level. If all have a reason they can't kneel or offhand then the playing field is even again so on and so forth.
We're all getting older, accepting where our limitations lie is the mature thing to do .. No ?
In rethinking my thinking ... Allow Open to use shooting sticks and eliminate Hunter is brilliant !!! Hunter folks would love the big optic option as a bonus.
Come end of the day it becomes a SKILL thing anyways. Not Gun ... not Optics as the hunter class has been proving for years now.
JMO ...
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Scott (Both, ) As long as the Hunter class is still left intact I could buy into that combing idea. Having been mentioned in the past it seemed to me the Open class was not exactly for it. They could keep all their extra allowances except maybe give up there shooting jackets and shoot it like a man, LOL, I think we have some great shooters in the hunter class that give them a run for their money now so if they would buy into it I am sure we can accommodate their offhand advantage with the jackets, harness, clicking, butt hooks, shoulder hooks, ect. Maybe allow us to move our sights to correct sight in errors but still not use clicking. Anything other things allowed would be frosting on the cake.
Bill
Bill
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So keeping Hunter class intact, just call Scotchmo's solution Hunter instead of Open then.
Everybody in the same class with minimal restrictions: no tripods, bipods have to fall away freely when the gun is lifted off them (no clamped in rigs), no laser rangefinders, no backs on stools/chairs, and gotta keep the power level under 20fpe.
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You are over-complicating the idea. Every shooting aid that's allowed in either Open and Hunter Divisions would be allowed in the combined division. Use whatever combination of the current Open AND Hunter shooting aids that suit you.
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Post above ... EXACTLY OPEN HUNTER
mix & match those aids allowed in either class that suit you. O' so simple !!!
mix & match those aids allowed in either class that suit you. O' so simple !!!
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I have seen this question come up time and time again, with no definitive reasoning behind this seeming trend away from open class.
Back in the day when I started shooting airgun, there was no class other than open. You shot either PCP or piston. Prior to PCP guns, everyone shot piston and if I remember correctly, there were a lot of damn good piston shooters! Then PCP guns came along and they were all the rage. Everybody wanted one, because they were supposedely easier to shoot. I know, I got hooked on them also......and you can never have just one.
AAFTA came along and added a "hunter" class in the attempt to allow ALL airgunners who had their airguns, regardless of powerplant, a way to get involved in shooting field target....period. Hunter started out slow, but eventually became an equipment race that even outdistanced the open class shooters. It was intended as an entry level class to learn the sport. Hell, even I tried it for a short while. It was fun.
The biggest attribute, in my opinion, for shooting open class was the ability to use the Price harness to get into and maintain a stable shooting stance. Sit on your bum bag, adjust your harness, and it was a very stable shooting position. I still use it to this day, and it is still a very stable shooting position. My thoughts on why open class is not seen to be as viable anymore, is the inability to purchase a harness! I know of no one who is selling them, and don't even know if Dick Price has made any in years. Unfortunately, no one else has picked up the baton and is carrying on with fabricating them. The opposite side to that coin is the fact that everybody and their brother sells shooting sticks. Get a bucket from anywhere, and a shooting stick, lower the power on your scope to 16X and most folks are happy with that. This is when I think the equipment race started.
Anymore, I see high dollar airguns, coupled with very high dollar scopes that are clear as a bell. Personally, I think $3500 for a scope is outrageous. This seems to be the trend if you want a stable shooting platform and are looking to win matches.
Personally, I am in this game to have fun and do the best I can with the equipment that I have. For the past number of years, I have even put away the PCP guns and have been shooting springer. I like shooting springer. It is a much simpler powerplant and is fun to shoot. I don't need a compressor or tanks or other ancilliary equipment to shoot. Just my bum bag, harness, and springer. I have been promoting this for some time, and enjoy scaring the daylights out of the PCP shooters when I come close to, or exceed their scores.
Another point, I am not shooting against anyone but myself, or has been noted earlier, against the course. That is where the fun and challenge lies.
A few years back, we (collectively, and across the country)we tried to institute a free style class, for beginners, or older shooters with eyesight, knee problems, etc. Use your current equipment, including a rangefinder (as I do when I am hunting) and you don't need the high priced scopes. You know the distance, now it is up to you to practice your marksmanship. That unfortunately got shot down at an AAFTA members meeting a few years back. Some clubs still practice this and the shooters, albeit not competitive per AAFTA standards, have turned in some pretty impressives scores using, say, lowly Marauder rifles and 3-9 scopes.
As for me, I will continue to promote open piston shooting. I am having fun, and at 70 (almost 71) years of age, have knee and back problems, most from spending many years as a firefighter, but lots of other guys and gals my age also have the same problems. At this point, I am not interested in having my knees cut into. Once in position, I am stable, but the transition from vertical to sitting is interesting from time to time, but that is another story.
I just wish someone would start making the harness again, and have it available to all, and at a reasonable price. You may just start seeing the ranks of open class shooter start to increase again, but that is just my not-so-humble opinion.
Take care, be safe, stay healthy, but most of all have FUN when you are out shooting.
Back in the day when I started shooting airgun, there was no class other than open. You shot either PCP or piston. Prior to PCP guns, everyone shot piston and if I remember correctly, there were a lot of damn good piston shooters! Then PCP guns came along and they were all the rage. Everybody wanted one, because they were supposedely easier to shoot. I know, I got hooked on them also......and you can never have just one.
AAFTA came along and added a "hunter" class in the attempt to allow ALL airgunners who had their airguns, regardless of powerplant, a way to get involved in shooting field target....period. Hunter started out slow, but eventually became an equipment race that even outdistanced the open class shooters. It was intended as an entry level class to learn the sport. Hell, even I tried it for a short while. It was fun.
The biggest attribute, in my opinion, for shooting open class was the ability to use the Price harness to get into and maintain a stable shooting stance. Sit on your bum bag, adjust your harness, and it was a very stable shooting position. I still use it to this day, and it is still a very stable shooting position. My thoughts on why open class is not seen to be as viable anymore, is the inability to purchase a harness! I know of no one who is selling them, and don't even know if Dick Price has made any in years. Unfortunately, no one else has picked up the baton and is carrying on with fabricating them. The opposite side to that coin is the fact that everybody and their brother sells shooting sticks. Get a bucket from anywhere, and a shooting stick, lower the power on your scope to 16X and most folks are happy with that. This is when I think the equipment race started.
Anymore, I see high dollar airguns, coupled with very high dollar scopes that are clear as a bell. Personally, I think $3500 for a scope is outrageous. This seems to be the trend if you want a stable shooting platform and are looking to win matches.
Personally, I am in this game to have fun and do the best I can with the equipment that I have. For the past number of years, I have even put away the PCP guns and have been shooting springer. I like shooting springer. It is a much simpler powerplant and is fun to shoot. I don't need a compressor or tanks or other ancilliary equipment to shoot. Just my bum bag, harness, and springer. I have been promoting this for some time, and enjoy scaring the daylights out of the PCP shooters when I come close to, or exceed their scores.
Another point, I am not shooting against anyone but myself, or has been noted earlier, against the course. That is where the fun and challenge lies.
A few years back, we (collectively, and across the country)we tried to institute a free style class, for beginners, or older shooters with eyesight, knee problems, etc. Use your current equipment, including a rangefinder (as I do when I am hunting) and you don't need the high priced scopes. You know the distance, now it is up to you to practice your marksmanship. That unfortunately got shot down at an AAFTA members meeting a few years back. Some clubs still practice this and the shooters, albeit not competitive per AAFTA standards, have turned in some pretty impressives scores using, say, lowly Marauder rifles and 3-9 scopes.
As for me, I will continue to promote open piston shooting. I am having fun, and at 70 (almost 71) years of age, have knee and back problems, most from spending many years as a firefighter, but lots of other guys and gals my age also have the same problems. At this point, I am not interested in having my knees cut into. Once in position, I am stable, but the transition from vertical to sitting is interesting from time to time, but that is another story.
I just wish someone would start making the harness again, and have it available to all, and at a reasonable price. You may just start seeing the ranks of open class shooter start to increase again, but that is just my not-so-humble opinion.
Take care, be safe, stay healthy, but most of all have FUN when you are out shooting.
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"WE" as an air Gun community with "FIELD TARGET" as a point of subject .... need to get those Much younger than the majority of us old farts involved in the game NOW.
If we the ageing out keep structuring the rules etc that best suit our needs while ignoring those younger that have potential to replace us keeping the sport alive and flourishing ... There won't be much of a future for the FT game we all are trying to embrace ... IMO.
If we the ageing out keep structuring the rules etc that best suit our needs while ignoring those younger that have potential to replace us keeping the sport alive and flourishing ... There won't be much of a future for the FT game we all are trying to embrace ... IMO.
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I think what Mortorhead just said makes good sense. If folks who are getting older keep chaning the rules to suit them, the sport will be changed. That's what Hunter Class is for (well, that's not it's intention, but it serves that purpose). Folks who can't do the up and down thing from the ground can shoot that class. Leave the rules for WFTF and Open as they are.
Also, I like what Mark in AZ said about more harnesses being available. I've spoken to more than one person at GP who wanted one but couldn't find one. I'm pretty sure I'm moving to WFTF next year, so mine will be on sale to the highest bidder!!
Chas
Also, I like what Mark in AZ said about more harnesses being available. I've spoken to more than one person at GP who wanted one but couldn't find one. I'm pretty sure I'm moving to WFTF next year, so mine will be on sale to the highest bidder!!
Chas
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Mark, you have made many good points and also coming from many years of experience. The only point of yours I question is the beginning of the Hunter class. I have been led to believe that the hunter class started some years before the 2006 Hunter Trial year that AFFTA started. I feel strongly that they started this equipment race in the trial year by allowing participants to use the high price rifles before they really had any rules. (Styers, Airwolfs, and other top airguns. The first year the hunter class was sanctioned by AFFTA in 2007 it was won by a DayState and followed by a Tuned up EV2 in 2008 with the Hunter version of LD's USFT one point behind. Some years ago a former Bog member stated the Hunter class was started to be a feeder system to bring new shooters into the game with high hopes they would graduate into the Open Class which created the little monster we call Hunter class today. Which in it self has become kind of the savior for AFFTA even though they didn't experience migration they had planned on. That is my humble opinion on it and I have expressed that many times in the past. Mark, Thanks for your input it is rewarding hearing from you and I value your opinions. Also Mark Basset and Larry Durham are also historians I also give credit to
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