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Is there any logic to the current power / caliber restrictions in US BR and FT?

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Perhaps go to a match and see what it really is. Reading about FT is just about like reading about rifle's of some type you've never seen, you get some idea but hilding one for 5 minutes would really tell you whats what.

Now FT IS an International Sport. The last World Event ( I believe) held in the US was in TN and I was lucky enough to be there - shooting 12fpe-. Met the President of Steyr, got to watch him rebuild a rifle for someone on the spot ( IF you could find it this leaning leason would have cost?? ) , the guy from March Scopes with all sorts of nice March scopes to check out, crosman prototypes, Steyr prototypes, I've met 4 airgun dealers and a couple of makers of airguns & such.
As an International Sport it makes some sence to use some international rules right? No one with a 7joule rifle is going to fly here if they cant shoot.

Also FT is a run what ya brung ( under 20fpe, but a match director can wave that IF they want to. I was allowed to use a 22fpe .22 at my first match and my buddy used hid RWS48 which was over also, but his best known squirrel rig. 

Owing rifles up to Rapid Air Weapons quality I mostly use a QB78/HPA ( under $200 w/scope ) , works just fine. I've also seen QB78's on Co2, discoverys, marauders, a Quest 1000, Gamo, R-7's, even old Benjamin pumpers ( and that fellow is a national champion ). You don't need any "special" gear.

"I" started ( and didn't intend to, I was only going to ONE match just to meet some airgun folks) with a . 22 at "20fpe" then got my first ( after shooting pre-charged since 1991 ) "tiny bore" again "20fpe". Fun fun fun. Then switched to "12fpe" 12fpe WILL improve your shooting skills! It will. And not that it matters but I use a low power duplex scope, helped develop betting hunting shoots on Squirrels ( the ones you eat not FT).


FT bears no resemblance to any , one of a kind event such as "extreme bench rest" ( I've heard folks complain about the "I cant use my regular rifle" thing regarding their event also) .

And as several others pointed out, get enough targets for a 60 shots match, set a course, put up a notice and folks will likely come - I would if possible- it is fun. ONLY points matches MUST be run by the rules, all informal ( the vast majority) are just fun shoots and up to the range master.

You think FT isn't for you, may not be but reading is NOTHING like attending, you really should go meet folks once, if you really have NO rig under 20fpe just call around/ahead and someone like myself will be most happy to lend you a rig.


John


 
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Every BR match I've attended has had controversy regarding the rules of various classes. When holding small local matches, you have to kind of let everyone shoot together regardless of what kind of equipment/power/caliber that they have. Unfortunately, that gives some shooters advantages over others, and it's almost impossible to stay within the sactioned rules. As a consequence, we have Mrod owners shooting against Thomas owners, but most compete in good spirits. What I feel should be eliminated is the LV and HV weight restrictions and one piece vs two piece rests. For the life of me, I can't see why and of these rules should give anyone any advantage. It's marksmanship brother, nothing else. As one, not now so famous, person said: "what difference does it make?".
 
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im in the process of making a range at my house for sanctioned matches, ive built traps that'll stand up to .30 at 25m,50yd,75yd and 100yds, i'll add 110m this year.

the way i see it, ill let people shoot what they bring, but theyre score won't stand for anything for USARB scoreline. I think its better to get people there and experience the sport. This is how the bug bites and they'll end up getting the equipment that is within the rules. And in turn add growth to the sport.
 
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"spysir"
Owing rifles up to Rapid Air Weapons quality I mostly use a QB78/HPA ( under $200 w/scope ) , works just fine. I've also seen QB78's on Co2, discoverys, marauders, a Quest 1000, Gamo, R-7's, even old Benjamin pumpers ( and that fellow is a national champion ). You don't need any "special" gear.


John



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Reminds me of when I was in high school and used to shoot a H&R 20ga single shot. I was a puller for the local trap club. I got tired of some of the braggarts with their $3K custom trap guns. So I bought my H&R one day and competed instead of working. I had a perfect score in singles and (1) miss in doubles because I dropped my second shell on my first shot, technically I still hit the bird but it was so low that the puller couldn't tell for sure if I hit before it hit the ground or not... It's not always the gun... But it was fun seeing the guys when they lost to a <$100 gun that was "too small" to compete, LMAO.
 
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"I_Like_Irons"zebra,

There is nothing that says you cannot start your own club, invent games to play, and start shooting them with others. Like blueflax put it, we shoot all kinds of different events here in Idaho. We include .22 rimfire and even centerfire rifles in some of our matches. Many are based on experience with conventional shooting sports and what we have learned at EBR. The rest essentially follow established rules. 

That said, you do have to classify with respect to power and powerplants in your matches. It would be unfair, for example, to pit economy springers with magazine fed .25 caliber PCPs in a speed shooting event at 75 yards. 

Paper is one target medium that does not care about power. Many of our matches in Idaho use paper for this exact reason. It is also pretty inexpensive (at least until you start printing on very large pieces of paper like the EBR target).
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I broadly agree with the concept of having separate classes to avoid giving some people an unfair advantage but there is already an unfair advantage in the current system and that is financial. 

If person A and person B are equally talented but person A has a Thomas and B has a stock Marauder, person A will win. You can't do much about what people can afford but I could see a number of positive effects of separating it into sub $1,000, sub $2,000 and $2,000 +. For one thing, it would stop the prices at the top end running away from us as nobody will buy an uber expensive gun they can't compete with in the popular events. 

If you say to people that you can choose any gun you want within this budget, that put everybody at the same advantage or disadvantage. Part of the skill involved would be choosing the right gun for the job. If I chose a 25 and did better in the wind than someone's 177, that's me making a smarter choice and they could have made the same choice if they wanted. 

It's like how choosing the right bullet and load in powder burner matches is part of the competition. It's not totally different to how choosing the right pellet is part of it in air gun sports. 

I noticed on the BR rules, there are some events that allow electronic guns and other technology and others that don't, so there is a general acknowledgment that the equipment can give people an unfair advantage.

On this point about the target for FT, how much do the current targets cost per piece and how much extra would it cost for the stronger ones? I am assuming that somebody has priced this out and done research on the specs needed to withstand a 22 and the additional thickness needed for a 25?

 
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BTW, I know nothing stops me or anybody starting their own club with their own rules but it wouldn't achieve the goal which is to bring everyone together, grow the sport and make it inclusive. 

The last thing this hobby needs is further segregation and splintering. It's too small and too spread out in a large country like America. 

The best thing, imo, would be to build on what's already there and try to find away of making it more appealing to a broader group without alienating the existing participants. 

The way to start is by looking for solutions instead of problems. We're all smart enough to offer a reasoned argument for why any model couldn't work, including the existing models which are already in operation. I haven't yet heard a problem here that we aren't smart enough to solve between us. 

It seems like people who run the US airgun BR are looking for ways to expand the sport. If I understand what they say correctly, they already look to try new formats. Perhaps they just need a better way of reaching the other side (I mean people who use regular air rifles and not dead people btw). 

I think a new and all inclusive discipline would be best if it was supported and run by the existing clubs. 

For me though, this "come and use your gun but it won't count" thing, it's not enough. It puts me off. It misses the point of what makes EBR so much more popular with "the others". 
 
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whats your nick on the Yellow zebra? Retail for a 20fpe target , gamo or air venturie is $30. A target that can take 100fpe is $85. Min 40 shot match, two shots per target=20 targets. $600 for the 20fpe targets, $1700 for the 100fpe targets. Also the cost of pellets will likely be prohibitive in .25+cal. The practice needed to be a top competitor in FT is not different that any other shooting sport. Can you afford a tin of JSB.25 every week?

As for your all inclusive bs give it a rest. You want the sport to change so you can play it instead of changing to play the sport. Sorry but it's just not the way it's going to work. Competition isn't about changing the rules for you, it's about working within the rules to win. If you like the sport and want the rules to change take part in the game. Start a club, get voting rights and work up from there, If you don't want to do it that way start a new sport.

This may seem harsh but it's the reality of the situation in FT.

BR is so very small any big changes will likely make it disappear on a national and world level. Period.

Thanks. John
 
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Airgun Bench Rest shooting is a pretty new sport in the US compared to Europe
and USARB has tried to invite the shooter who does not want to purchase a gun just for benchrest and it failed badly
the US production class was so poorly participated in

Discontinued Classes USA Production Class:
"John_in_Ma"BR is so very small any big changes will likely make it disappear on a national and world level. Period.

Thanks. John





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"The reason is obvious. With American airguns, 10m and 25m (or even 50m) events with specialist and uber expensive 177 rifles sounds boring. People want to go and compete in friendly competition with their favorite gun and caliber at distances that push the boundaries. They want to use their favorite 25 and 30 cal FX, Daystate, kalibrgun and Vulcan rifles and they don’t want to have to buy a high price low power single shot 177. "


​Most of the rifles the op listed cost 3-4x what either of my field target rifles cost. Not to mention the increase in ammo cost to feed those big bores that will add up over a season. The spring gun class in field target is extremely budget friendly. In the pcp class, you don't need to spend a crazy amount of money, you need a good barrel and good glass.
 
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With respect to the members of this forum, there is a myth about the over priced and under powered nature of 10 meter air guns. Our club shoots a monthly 10 meter/bell target match and the vast majority (one guy shoots a very nice FWB pistol) these are used guns that cost about 1/3 of what I paid for my Air Ranger.

I-Like-Irons shot his FWB-300 in the 25 meter springer match, which had a power limit of 35 FPE an almost limitless restriction from the viewpoint of a ten meter springer designed in the 1960s. He came in second behind a TX-200. 

Ron
 
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+1

whats your nick on the Yellow zebra? Retail for a 20fpe target , gamo or air venturie is $30. A target that can take 100fpe is $85. Min 40 shot match, two shots per target=20 targets. $600 for the 20fpe targets, $1700 for the 100fpe targets. Also the cost of pellets will likely be prohibitive in .25+cal. The practice needed to be a top competitor in FT is not different that any other shooting sport. Can you afford a tin of JSB.25 every week?

As for your all inclusive bs give it a rest. You want the sport to change so you can play it instead of changing to play the sport. Sorry but it's just not the way it's going to work. Competition isn't about changing the rules for you, it's about working within the rules to win. If you like the sport and want the rules to change take part in the game. Start a club, get voting rights and work up from there, If you don't want to do it that way start a new sport.

This may seem harsh but it's the reality of the situation in FT.

BR is so very small any big changes will likely make it disappear on a national and world level. Period.

Thanks. John
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