Is Troyer rating agnostic to caliber? Should it be?

[Centercut]

Been thinking of this for some time. I’ve been told by old time FT shooters that Troyer is Troyer, independent of caliber.
But does that really make sense? If I’m shooting at a close 3/8 inch KZ, isn’t the margin of error larger with .177 than .20 or .22? Seems to reason, since Troyer is a degree of difficulty and putting a smaller object through the same size hole is easier than a larger one.
Probably doesn’t come into play much in low power FT, since almost everyone shoots .177. But how about Extreme FT where some shoot .22, some .25 and some .30? At the recent TexTreme FT there were 3 targets between 36 and 44 yards with 1” KZs. They were all T rated 36 to 44, but I’m pretty sure putting a .22 pellet through that hole is easier than a .30 pellet.
Should the T rating for an Extreme FT course be pellet caliber specific?
Food for thought….

 

[Franklink]

Lol, this one bugs you doesnt it.

It's not caliber adjusted for the handful of guys that shoot regular ft with a .20. and I think the reason is because they're choosing not to shoot .177-sort of a self-imposed hardship. Ie, the Troyer is the baseline difficulty factor, if the shooter chooses to make it harder on themselves that's on them. Sorta like if a shooter chooses to use iron sights, Troyer wouldn't change, but the iron sights guy definitely created an unnecessary hardship, thereby making it more difficult for themselves. But that doesn't mean the course was any harder for the rest of the guys using legal magnification limit scopes for their class. Which is another point, in regular FT their isn't a different Troyer for 16x limited Hunter class versus no magnification limit Open and WFTF. (The hardcore .20 shooters feel there are other benefits that outweigh the kill zone clearance but that's another discussion.)

As for Xtreme FT, we're almost always dealing with MUCH larger kzs and therefore significantly greater clearance between pellet diameter and kz edges. Yes Ben threw out a tiny little kz as a test once, but typically XFT has huge kZs and therefore clearances, when compared to the same in regular ft. Another XFT argument would be that maybe the improved wind resistance of a certain larger caliber projectile outweighs the clearance issue, and obviously some shooters feel that way cuz they choose the larger caliber. So maybe it's a wash?

I view Troyer as a baseline difficulty factor, as a comparison tool. Ie, for a general idea of how hard a course is or was.

I thought it was awesome that they included Troyer factors on the target distance sheet for the recent Textreme event. Gave me a much better idea of the relative challenge the competitors faced.

 

[qball]

Good question but the same choices do come up in FT, some people do shoot 20 cal and some even tries with 22 cal. Eventually everyone all figured out 177 or at the most 20 cal is better. With EFT if someone choses to use 50 cal then wouldn't it be their choice? Rules and KZ sizes aren't exactly a secret so what projectile they choose is completely their choice.

 

[Centercut]

Luckily it has nothing to do with score, but it does have an impact on relative difficulty. That’s what Troyer is for in the first place. Easy day.
My point, good, bad, or indifferent is if shooting an EFT course with a .22 or .30, the .30 is relatively more difficult. By how much is debatable since the .30 is larger AND has a lesser BC than the .22 RDM.

 

[Scotchmo]

The base Troyer rating is a number that represents an inversion of the “shooters MOA”. The lower the MOA, the greater the target difficulty. It’s independent of the equipment used. It rates the target difficulty relative to other targets. And then multipliers are added for various other factors that make it harder to hit.

Examples:
1” target at 100yds:
1”/100yds x 100% = 1moa
100yds/1” = 100T

0.75” target at 30yds:
0.75”/30yds x 100% = 2.5moa
30yds/0.75” = 40T

A true MOA is actually 1/60 of a degree. “shooter’s MOA” is an approximation using 1” in 100yds.

The shooters equipment choices can also make it easier or harder for them to make the hit.

 

[Franklink]

The last time this came up it was mentioned (maybe by Wayne Burns) that with a bigger chunk of lead, the shooter has a better chance of scoring a point (knockdown) on a "split" target.

There's also the known consistency issues with the .22 RDMs. Since their consistency is not as good as the .30s, should we call a target shot at by a .22 RDM a harder to knock down target than one shot at by a typically more consistent .30 pellet?

Pros and cons either way (.22 or .30), likely that most of it comes out in the wash. The beauty of it is that if anybody feels like a certain caliber or particular pellet has an advantage, nobody is stopping them from switching over.

 

[Centercut]

The last time this came up it was mentioned (maybe by Wayne Burns) that with a bigger chunk of lead, the shooter has a better chance of scoring a point (knockdown) on a "split" target.

There's also the known consistency issues with the .22 RDMs. Since their consistency is not as good as the .30s, should we call a target shot at by a .22 RDM a harder to knock down target than one shot at by a typically more consistent .30 pellet?

Pros and cons either way (.22 or .30), likely that most of it comes out in the wash. The beauty of it is that if anybody feels like a certain caliber or particular pellet has an advantage, nobody is stopping them from switching over.

I think you missed my point. All I’m saying is that all other things being equal, it harder to put an object through the same size hole if it’s larger. Common sense and physics, not debatable. Wasn’t saying anything other than that. Sorry if you took it that way.
Troyer is perfectly fine for comparing one course to another under calm conditions. However, comparing the same course with differing calibers is debatable.

 

[Garrettkq]

Troyer isn’t perfect when it comes to rating difficulty across the spectrum. That’s what gives someone something to talk about at the cooler. Look at it as… the more you can punch holes in it, the more experienced you’re becoming.

 

[rich177]

I don't think the Troyer rating was ever meant to be perfect. What it is is a good "indicator" of relative course difficulty comparing one course to another. There are a whole lot of factors not considered in the Troyer, but a lot that are. Way back before Troyer I just used average target distance to evaluate comparative course difficulty. The Troyer rating is far better and very simple. Many many , many years ago I shot FT with a .22 air rifle and in some ways it had some advantages relative to a .177.

 

[Franklink]

I think you missed my point. All I’m saying is that all other things being equal, it harder to put an object through the same size hole if it’s larger. Common sense and physics, not debatable. Wasn’t saying anything other than that. Sorry if you took it that way.
Troyer is perfectly fine for comparing one course to another under calm conditions. However, comparing the same course with differing calibers is debatable.

No fight here Mike. I wasn't (and still am not) riled up. Healthy discussion here.

I was just pointing out that all other things aren't equal. If it was as simple as hole size versus caliber size than yes, I see your point. But it isn't that simple, lots of other factors play into what a competitor chooses to shoot, ie what they feel gives them the best chance at winning. If you think the .22 RDM has an advantage b/c of kill zone size, easy enough to go back to the .22 RDM. I sometimes wonder if a .25/34grainer would offer me an advantage over the .22 RDM, to the point that I find myself considering options in .25 from time to time. Some of all this is the "grass is greener" concept.

As rich177 stated, Troyer rating ain't perfect, but it's a pretty good way to compare relative course difficulty. caliber size is the competitors choice, and downstream from what an average Troyer factor is meaning to convey.

 

[Centercut]

No fight here Mike. I wasn't (and still am not) riled up. Healthy discussion here.

I was just pointing out that all other things aren't equal. If it was as simple as hole size versus caliber size than yes, I see your point. But it isn't that simple, lots of other factors play into what a competitor chooses to shoot, ie what they feel gives them the best chance at winning. If you think the .22 RDM has an advantage b/c of kill zone size, easy enough to go back to the .22 RDM. I sometimes wonder if a .25/34grainer would offer me an advantage over the .22 RDM, to the point that I find myself considering options in .25 from time to time. Some of all this is the "grass is greener" concept.

As rich177 stated, Troyer rating ain't perfect, but it's a pretty good way to compare relative course difficulty. caliber size is the competitors choice, and downstream from what an average Troyer factor is meaning to convey.

Ok I see your point. But you missed mine. I wasn’t saying which had advantages, although the .22RDM if you can find good ones are about tied with .25 King Heavy as scientifically the best for EFT.
I was only comparing apples to apples in that the RATINGS are for smaller calibers (.22/.177) and it does make a difference from a physics perspective that smaller items through same sized holes is easier than larger ones. That’s it. My point is that TECHNICALLY the Troyer for .30 is or should be higher than for .22 if we’re comparing apples to apples.
That’s all I was pointing out. Please don’t read more into it than that. Thanks.

 

[qball]

Pros and cons either way (.22 or .30), likely that most of it comes out in the wash. The beauty of it is that if anybody feels like a certain caliber or particular pellet has an advantage, nobody is stopping them from switching over.

Agee 100% here, Troyer system is simply a baseline so that everyone can gauge the difficulty of the course and choose their tool appropriately. As with any baseline it needs to be consistent with lowest common denominator in mind.

I kind of think FT in general is like golf except for no need for embarrassing 3 or even 5 puts. The golf course slope rating is there for relative baseline of the course difficulty and include things like length, hazards and green difficulties like flag placement which is another conversation by itself. Base on the slope rating a golfer would mentally prepare and look into the details then choose which clubs and balls to use. Just like FT the wind, flag placement and green speed changes the difficulty level dramatically.

Troyer to me is similar use case, just a general guideline which changes completely as soon as the wind picks up or target placement changes. Depending on condition and KZ size and placement a different ammo/caliber might be more advantageous. Just like golf if a shooter is competitive then he or she will do more in-depth research on the course. Have a good baseline and there is no need to cater to everyone since we all know we can't please everyone, as long as everyone knows and play by the same rule then it's fair.

 

[Centercut]

Agree, makes sense. Remember when the British balls were smaller and flew farther than American balls? They were also easier to get in the hole….

The reason I shoot .30, despite being bigger and harder to get in the hole, and having an inferior BC to the .22 RDMs, is that you can see the flight of the pellet to the target and can see your misses. You can’t do that with .22 RDMs going 970 fps. There’s the advantage and why two out of the top 3 at the most recent TexTreme Texas State EFT championships shot .30 caliber.

 

[O'Laugh]

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[Centercut]

Did you read Scotchmo's reply above?

Yes, good explanation... I'm guessing that some haven't gotten my main point. I'll just drop it...
Not sure what is so hard about seeing that bigger is harder than smaller to insert into a set area. Thats OK though, it doesn't really matter...

Just to clarify, from Scott's post:

0.75” target at 30yds:
0.75”/30yds x 100% = 2.5moa
30yds/0.75” = 40T

Makes sense.... And if the gun is a .22, and the size of the KZ is .75", then the EFFECTIVE diameter, kind like OUTWARD scoring, is 0.75 - 0.22 or 0.53". Shooting a .30 caliber gun it is 0.75 - 0.30 or 0.45". This is a difference of 0.08". So, assuming 0.75 inches for a .22 caliber, it would/should be 0.75 - 0.08 or 0.67".
30yrd/0.67" = 44.8T. That assuming we're comparing apples to apples... And that is all I was trying to get across, rather poorly I might add.

 

[O'Laugh]

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[Centercut]

Uncle

 

[O'Laugh]

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[O'Laugh]

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[shootermeb]

The Troyer number is a course planning tool, and can be used as a comparison tool (not an absolute) to compare unlike courses. That's all it is. It is not a reflection of any individual person's experience of actual target difficulty.

I can agree with the reality of certain KZ sizes being significantly tighter depending on projectile diameter selection; these differences disappear quickly as the KZ increases. For example, caliber choice when shooting at a 1.5 inch KZ is insignificant.

I personally believe a 3/8 inch KZ to be unreasonable for any caliber shot in FT at any distance. Shooting a 3/8 in KZ is asking the same of shooting a 10 on the 10m air target with a .177 cal projectile. I do not think this is a reasonable expectation with a shooting system that has to account for several uncertainties to make a shot (wind, distance, temperature, no sighting shots, faceplate thickness and angle, holdover, etc.)

A 1/2 inch KZ is a reasonable ask and is a challenging target, but at least there is wiggle room to account for the uncertainties. So we can use the KZ minus caliber test to determine reasonableness. If I were planning an XFT course, I'd consider a 1/2 inch KZ at the 15-20 yd range as reasonable. If you choose to shoot a .30 cal, it will be tougher on you, and that sucks for you, but it is reasonable for the people shooting a .22 or .25 cal. The choice of a heavier caliber is a trade off in hopes it will buck the wind better than smaller calibers, and that's a choice the shooter makes.

Should we consider a .30 cal is easier to shoot at the longer distances and claim it to have an easier difficulty rating than a .22? Reality may not align with a model that smply subtracts caliber from KZ size calculation. What if the wind isn't blowing, are we then all equal? What about splitting a shot on the KZ? there is likely more pellet mass in a .30 cal, and a better chance that fractional mass will get through the KZ better than a split .22. What all needs to be accounted for to match reality? Maybe the reality is a .30 cal is easier to score with than a .22 cal - if that were the case, it would not fit your agenda. But, it all doesn't matter because the difficulty number is just a guide to help setup a reasonable course, it is not a description of reality.

MODE EDIT: removed non-constructive paragraph of insults