Is Troyer rating agnostic to caliber? Should it be?

[AirNGasman]

"Should the T rating for an Extreme FT course be pellet caliber specific?"

I could give an answer based on reality and experience, that would be pretty short, but what fun is that? I'd rather open a(nother) beer and enjoy the show than interrupt or bring a premature end to it.

Y'all try to get by without me for a while; gotta go buy another case.

Happy Debating,
Og

 

[O'Laugh]

.

 

[Franklink]

The reason I shoot .30, despite being bigger and harder to get in the hole, and having an inferior BC to the .22 RDMs, is that you can see the flight of the pellet to the target and can see your misses. You can’t do that with .22 RDMs going 970 fps. There’s the advantage and why two out of the top 3 at the most recent TexTreme Texas State EFT championships shot .30 caliber.

So you're saying that the the .30 has an advantage (because the flight path of the pellet is visible) that would make shooting with a .22 RDM more difficult. Right? So should we rate the course as harder for a .22 RDM shooter? I'm not trying to make that argument, just trying to assist in the visualization of the concepts at play here.

I think the splitting of hairs for all the factors that play into how difficult a course is gets real tough. It turns into a lot of comparisons of apples and oranges. There's no way to quantify if the ability to see a .30 flying through air outweighs the slightly smaller margins by which a .22 can fit through a kill zone. Same as there's no way to quantify the .30s better consistency than the .22 RDMs. Or if a guy is using a bullpup or a long rifle. Or a channel shaped bipod adaptor versus a Y shaped one. Or on and on and on. It'd be crazy hard to figure all of that stuff into Troyers. And that's why I feel like the simple, distance/kill zone size, with a couple difficulty factors applied (wind, distance beyond a certain point, etc) is plenty.

(It is unfortunate that healthy discussion often turns into folks getting upset, as we saw here. Couple guys get upset and start throwing insults and the discussion ends, and so does the mutual learning and understanding that can come from non confrontational debate. )

 

[Scotchmo]

3/8” target with a 1/8” thick faceplate, at 45 degree up a tree, 12yds away, line of sight. That’s a legal target, but it’s impossible to make a clean hit.
The calculated Troyer rating is 40. The “pellet specific Troyer” rating would be infinity even for a .177 caliber.

The Troyer rating is more of a course layout tool rather than an actual difficulty rating. The average Troyer is usually what’s reported, but tells nothing about the most difficult targets, and those are the targets that are missed the most. The standard deviation is an even more important measure of the course, and it’s often overlooked.

 

[Centercut]

So you're saying that the the .30 has an advantage (because the flight path of the pellet is visible) that would make shooting with a .22 RDM more difficult. Right? So should we rate the course as harder for a .22 RDM shooter? I'm not trying to make that argument, just trying to assist in the visualization of the concepts at play here.

I think the splitting of hairs for all the factors that play into how difficult a course is gets real tough. It turns into a lot of comparisons of apples and oranges. There's no way to quantify if the ability to see a .30 flying through air outweighs the slightly smaller margins by which a .22 can fit through a kill zone. Same as there's no way to quantify the .30s better consistency than the .22 RDMs. Or if a guy is using a bullpup or a long rifle. Or a channel shaped bipod adaptor versus a Y shaped one. Or on and on and on. It'd be crazy hard to figure all of that stuff into Troyers. And that's why I feel like the simple, distance/kill zone size, with a couple difficulty factors applied (wind, distance beyond a certain point, etc) is plenty.

(It is unfortunate that healthy discussion often turns into folks getting upset, as we saw here. Couple guys get upset and start throwing insults and the discussion ends, and so does the mutual learning and understanding that can come from non-confrontational debate.)

Thanks... Yeah, some get all upset and overload on keyboard courage, say things they'd never say face to face. We know each other so that's not the case, but some of the Newby's on here get kinda chest puffed for whatever reason...

I actually feel the best pellet for EFT is the .25 King Heavy. Its smaller so it fits, you can shoot it slower (880 to 910 fps) so you can see it, it has the best wind resistance of any pellet....

Speaking of channel shaped bipods, I did see abundant use of Hog Saddle type bipods at my last AAFTA match at Rio in November... Wouldn't be legal EFT, but seems OK for AAFTA?

My new .25 BRK Ghost will be my EFT gun for 2023, whenever I can get it. That is, if it can beat out my old .30 FX Bobcat Mk2...

 

[O'Laugh]

.

 

[Centercut]

Uncle

(I still don't know what that means, btw)

It means "I quit". When I call UNCLE that means I'm done. Haven't you heard that before?

 

[isledweller]

Ooooppsss.....see it was already answered

 

[O'Laugh]

.

 

[AirNGasman]

Since Centercut is apparently no better at stirring the pot than he is at field target , I'd better step (back) in now and take up the slack.

1) Of course it's harder for .22 RDM shooters; lest not only would the only such shooter that made the podium at TEXtreme have blown the other podium placers out of the water, but mere mortal .22 RDM shooters would have rounded out the other two podium places.

2) Without going into excruciating detail(s) like those already covered during my second case of Lone Star longnecks, and at the risk of losing any iota of credibility I might still have with the following statement, Centercut is correct that .30 makes up for perceived (by some) Troyer handicaps with other advantages.

3) Anyone that lets it get out that I agreed with anything Centercut stated risks an unfortunate and untimely demise!

4)

5) You show some talent for pot stirring, Mike. Not so much, field target.

 

[Centercut]

Since Centercut is apparently no better at stirring the pot than he is at field target , I'd better step (back) in now and take up the slack.

1) Of course it's harder for .22 RDM shooters; lest not only would the only such shooter that made the podium at TEXtreme have blown the other podium placers out of the water, but mere mortal .22 RDM shooters would have rounded out the other two podium places.

2) Without going into excruciating detail(s) like those already covered during my second case of Lone Star longnecks, and at the risk of losing any iota of credibility I might still have with the following statement, Centercut is correct that .30 makes up for perceived (by some) Troyer handicaps with other advantages.

3) Anyone that lets it get out that I agreed with anything Centercut stated risks an unfortunate and untimely demise!

4)

5) You show some talent for pot stirring, Mike. Not so much, field target.

I can only hope with years more practice to rise to the level of the exalted OG….

 

[okieairgunner]

No fight here Mike. I wasn't (and still am not) riled up. Healthy discussion here.

I was just pointing out that all other things aren't equal. If it was as simple as hole size versus caliber size than yes, I see your point. But it isn't that simple, lots of other factors play into what a competitor chooses to shoot, ie what they feel gives them the best chance at winning. If you think the .22 RDM has an advantage b/c of kill zone size, easy enough to go back to the .22 RDM. I sometimes wonder if a .25/34grainer would offer me an advantage over the .22 RDM, to the point that I find myself considering options in .25 from time to time. Some of all this is the "grass is greener" concept.

As rich177 stated, Troyer rating ain't perfect, but it's a pretty good way to compare relative course difficulty. caliber size is the competitors choice, and downstream from what an average Troyer factor is meaning to convey.

I have often thought about switching to the more consistent .25 33.95 as well. But I just keep think I want to get really good at one thing first or at least try my best to use the .22 mrds to the best of their ability and mine.

 

[OldSpook]

Been thinking of this for some time. I’ve been told by old time FT shooters that Troyer is Troyer, independent of caliber.
But does that really make sense? If I’m shooting at a close 3/8 inch KZ, isn’t the margin of error larger with .177 than .20 or .22? Seems to reason, since Troyer is a degree of difficulty and putting a smaller object through the same size hole is easier than a larger one.
Probably doesn’t come into play much in low power FT, since almost everyone shoots .177. But how about Extreme FT where some shoot .22, some .25 and some .30? At the recent TexTreme FT there were 3 targets between 36 and 44 yards with 1” KZs. They were all T rated 36 to 44, but I’m pretty sure putting a .22 pellet through that hole is easier than a .30 pellet.
Should the T rating for an Extreme FT course be pellet caliber specific?
Food for thought….

You could work up a set of multipliers which would convert between calibers if you wanted to do that.
The ratio of the areas of a .177 and a .25 is given by:
((6.35/2)^2)/((4.5/2)^2) ... which equals almost exactly 2

 

[AirNGasman]

"I can only hope with years more practice to rise to the level of the exalted OG"

Eggssalted Og haved date toonite wif bootyfull KatThe Griftin'. OG IN LUVST!

 

[Motorhead]

Would agree .. larger the caliber HARDER it becomes to get a clean entry into a kill zone weighed against a smaller caliber.
As a die hard .20 cal FT shooter having what one may say better than average success shooting along side .177's .... attribute this to the superior BC and reduced wind drift characteristics.
What is given up in speed and trajectory profile & easier to get a Split not having target fall is OUTWEIGHTED by the better BC and reduced wind drift.
I give up a few characteristics to gain a few that I've found to be an advantage.

Long live the .20

 

[Podna]

Uncle

(I still don't know what that means, btw)

KeyboardShooter:

I saw where someone explained "Uncle" but that is a yankee term. In Texas we say "Calf Rope"! Same meaning as Uncle but more colorful.

 

[rcs9250]

1. What does RDM stand for ?
2. What is a “SPLIT” ?
3. What is a good resource, such as a manual, for FT and it variations around the country and world ?

 

[Motorhead]

1. What does RDM stand for ?
2. What is a “SPLIT” ?
3. What is a good resource, such as a manual, for FT and it variations around the country and world ?

1) Re designed Monster ( .22 cal JSB at 25.4 grains
2) A term in Field Target when you clip an edge of Kill Zone typically with not enough of the pellet inside KZ to knock down target.
3) AAFTA.ORG

 

[Martin3528]

Here's my take. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong!
A .30 is .0706 square inches (s.i.) surface area
A .22 is .0380 s.i.
That means a .30 is about 86% larger than a .22, but that is not really the case when determining impact area.
Here is a sketch showing a .22 and a .30 at the edge of a 1" circle ( kill zone)

As you can see, there is only .0064 s.i. of a .30 pellet that may cause a miss if a .22 pellet barely clears the hole. This reduces the difference to about a 17% difference in area that may cause a miss with a .30 vs. a hit with a .22. Now, if I was really good at statistics, or knew someone that was, we could create all kinds of scenarios that would include different variables, but this is the simplest example. We could take into account the probability of a hit with a 20% edge shot, or something like that and start a whole new set of calculations.

The whole purpose is to put the pellet in a hole. If you are able to center punch the hole with regularity, it would be about 17% more difficult with a .30 than with a .22. Now, in my opinion, does it really matter? No. The Troyer is still the Troyer regardless of what type of caliber you choose to use. You might try to argue that you are a better shot because you have the same score with a .30 as someone with a .22, but that is an argument for a later date. .

FWIW!

 

[Centercut]

Interesting, appreciate the input. When I was considering this, I used DIAMETER and not area. So, the way I looked at it was:

1" diameter KZ - .30" pellet diameter = 0.7"
1" diameter KZ - .22" pellet diameter = 0.78"
.78/.7= 1.14 or approx. 14% more "diameter" to fit a .22 pellet through a 1" KZ.

As the KZ grows, that number decrease markedly...
So, for a 3" KZ, say at 100 yards, the number shrinks to about 3%.