Is Troyer rating agnostic to caliber? Should it be?

[tjmac]

Let say you do all the complicated calculations for a course and let everyone know that the Troyer for .22 is, let's say, 29, and the Troyer for the .30 guys is 32. When everyone sits down to shoot the match, what difference does that make?

Tim

 

[Motorhead]

Reverse it up and shoot a SWINGER in lieu of Threw a Hole .... Advantage goes to the .30 or any caliber greater than .177
For any hit or light edge clip a swinger moves .. not so when dealing with a hole.

Food for thought & Why some Extreme FT matches such as OREGON are actually a bit easier based on a given & equal KZ/Hole specification.

 

[Centercut]

Reverse it up and shoot a SWINGER in lieu of Threw a Hole .... Advantage goes to the .30 or any caliber greater than .177
For any hit or light edge clip a swinger moves .. not so when dealing with a hole.

Food for thought & Why some Extreme FT matches such as OREGON are actually a bit easier based on a given & equal KZ/Hole specification.

Yup, no doubt. At Wayne's EFT matches in OR the .30 has the advantage since he uses swingers... Good point.

 

[Centercut]

Let say you do all the complicated calculations for a course and let everyone know that the Troyer for .22 is, let's say, 29, and the Troyer for the .30 guys is 32. When everyone sits down to shoot the match, what difference does that make?

Tim

True dat.... No difference. This is all just food for thought, as is the entire Troyer concept which is subjective in the first place.

 

[Motorhead]

Yup, no doubt. At Wayne's EFT matches in OR the .30 has the advantage since he uses swingers... Good point.

Lol ... and to think last time I shot Oregon EFT did so with a .177 ... now that was not too bright !

 

[steve123]

Reverse it up and shoot a SWINGER in lieu of Threw a Hole .... Advantage goes to the .30 or any caliber greater than .177
For any hit or light edge clip a swinger moves .. not so when dealing with a hole.

Food for thought & Why some Extreme FT matches such as OREGON are actually a bit easier based on a given & equal KZ/Hole specification.

Also easier because of the multitude of flags on the course and for most of the match we can see where our pellets land due to the white painted steel background behind the spinner.

I enjoyed this type of match more than the usual. Do I prefer all the above^^^^?, YES I do! Higher hit ratios.....!

 

[Centercut]

Lol ... and to think last time I shot Oregon EFT did so with a .177 ... now that was not too bright !

But you did well the year I was there (2021)... Now shooting Extreme Benchrest at 100 yards in OR winds with a .177 pellet rifle was like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

[Centercut]

Also easier because of the multitude of flags on the course and for most of the match we can see where our pellets land due to the white painted steel background behind the spinner.

I enjoyed this type of match more than the usual. Do I prefer all the above^^^^?, YES I do! Higher hit ratios.....!

Yeah, you cleaned up there that year (2021) Steve. That was back when your Thomas HP-X (Surely) was shooting RDMs extremely well and not throwing flyers like it does now...

 

[Motorhead]

But you did well the year I was there (2021)... Now shooting Extreme Benchrest at 100 yards in OR winds with a .177 pellet rifle was like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

The Bench Rest portion of the event with the same rifle was disappointing no doubt. Thinking more pocket knife to a sword fight

 

[steve123]

Yeah, you cleaned up there that year (2021) Steve. That was back when your Thomas HP-X (Surely) was shooting RDMs extremely well and not throwing flyers like it does now...

Yeah I ran out of that lot # of pellets, good batch. Probably should put back the velocity to 895 fps when I shoot RDM's, and pillar bed the stock.

 

[Franklink]

True dat.... No difference. This is all just food for thought, as is the entire Troyer concept which is subjective in the first place.

Kill zone sizes and distances are pretty objective, ie, no room for opinion or personal feelings there.

Only place it gets a bit subjective is the difficulty factor for wind in the traditional sub20fpe Troyer system. "Windy" or not is subjective. And that's why I wasn't doing any wind adjustment for the PHX XFT match reports. There was discussion about accounting for wind for extreme ft matches and what I suggested there was the only way I could see being scientific about how to factor into the wind. (Specific and stated difficulty factors, relative to specific and stated measured wind speeds).

As long as we're talking about extreme ft matches and how we extrapolated the Troyer system for it, I just don't see where any of that is subjective.

 

[Centercut]

Kill zone sizes and distances are pretty objective, ie, no room for opinion or personal feelings there.

Only place it gets a bit subjective is the difficulty factor for wind in the traditional sub20fpe Troyer system. "Windy" or not is subjective. And that's why I wasn't doing any wind adjustment for the PHX XFT match reports. There was discussion about accounting for wind for extreme ft matches and what I suggested there was the only way I could see being scientific about how to factor into the wind. (Specific and stated difficulty factors, relative to specific and stated measured wind speeds).

As long as we're talking about extreme ft matches and how we extrapolated the Troyer system for it, I just don't see where any of that is subjective.

Thats what I was referring to, is all the extraneous BS that makes one course with the same Troyer MUCH harder or easier than the next. For indoor courses on totally flat ground, you are correct, Troyer is totally objective. For real world conditions, it's as subjective as they come...

 

[Franklink]

Thats what I was referring to, is all the extraneous BS that makes one course with the same Troyer MUCH harder or easier than the next. For indoor courses on totally flat ground, you are correct, Troyer is totally objective. For real world conditions, it's as subjective as they come...

What you're referring to now is different than the Troyer factor. Let me use a benchrest example. Long range benchrest portions of RMAC and EBR use very similar targets, but from what you guys that have shot both have told me, the conditions can make one or the other much more or less difficult, in any given year.

So, the concept behind the Troyer is simple way to compare one course (or monthly match) to a different course (or monthly match). If RMAC was using a 3 inch circle for their "10" ring but EBR is using a 1/2" circle for their ten ring, as an interested party (shooter or spectator) I feel that is relevant information and I'd like that distinction to be made. ie reported in a match report or the media coverage (just like we report the course Troyers for extreme FT matches)

For field target, Troyer isn't an all-encompassing difficulty factor, just a baseline of kill zone sizes and distances to give perspective and relevance. For example, the Textreme a few weeks ago. Seems like the average Troyer for the course was in the low 30s? (for some reason 32-34 is what stuck in my mind). That tells me that those guys were shooting at kill zone sizes and distances that averaged pretty near what we shoot at in Arizona. It doesn't tell me if they dealt with extreme wind or rain or mud or sun or shade, or etc. etc. etc. Another example, to my knowledge, Mike S. holds the record for best knowck down ratio in the XFT @ PRGC matches. If he had done that on a course with an average T of only 24 I wouldn't be as impressed as I am knowing that he did that on a course that was around 34-35 (dont remember the exact T for that course but it wasn't substantially larger kill zones or closer distances than a typical XFT @PRGC match.)

Troyer is just to help give a perspective of baseline difficulty, it is not an all-encompassing difficulty rating.

 

[Centercut]

What you're referring to now is different than the Troyer factor. Let me use a benchrest example. Long range benchrest portions of RMAC and EBR use very similar targets, but from what you guys that have shot both have told me, the conditions can make one or the other much more or less difficult, in any given year.

So, the concept behind the Troyer is simple way to compare one course (or monthly match) to a different course (or monthly match). If RMAC was using a 3 inch circle for their "10" ring but EBR is using a 1/2" circle for their ten ring, as an interested party (shooter or spectator) I feel that is relevant information and I'd like that distinction to be made. ie reported in a match report or the media coverage (just like we report the course Troyers for extreme FT matches)

For field target, Troyer isn't an all-encompassing difficulty factor, just a baseline of kill zone sizes and distances to give perspective and relevance. For example, the Textreme a few weeks ago. Seems like the average Troyer for the course was in the low 30s? (for some reason 32-34 is what stuck in my mind). That tells me that those guys were shooting at kill zone sizes and distances that averaged pretty near what we shoot at in Arizona. It doesn't tell me if they dealt with extreme wind or rain or mud or sun or shade, or etc. etc. etc. Another example, to my knowledge, Mike S. holds the record for best knowck down ratio in the XFT @ PRGC matches. If he had done that on a course with an average T of only 24 I wouldn't be as impressed as I am knowing that he did that on a course that was around 34-35 (dont remember the exact T for that course but it wasn't substantially larger kill zones or closer distances than a typical XFT @PRGC match.)

Troyer is just to help give a perspective of baseline difficulty, it is not an all-encompassing difficulty rating.

Gotcha... I thought it was to compare course difficulty AS SHOT in that match. You make sense. If you look at the base Troyer at Textreme compared to AZ, they are pretty much the same, but one course is MUCH more difficult than the other and the average scores reflect that. Plus, the TexTreme course follows GP regs in that the forced position lane is standing with bipod, which also makes it easier than strict off hand in AZ.
Good discussion... I'll start coming to AZ in January each month but I'm going to be shooting my Slugger as we talked about earlier this year prior to EBR.

 

[Motorhead]

To above statement ... Correct !
2 man squad of equal ablity, at there lane of the moment.
1st guy shoots his 4 shots and damn if the winds not blowing and he cleans it !
2nd guy shoots his 4 shots and DAMN IT the wind picked up and a few misses happen

Same target, same distances ... Wind changes the TROYER rating and for these two imaginary shooters is was NOT an equal difficulty for score.
Indeed TROYER is just a baseline and in an FT match this happens often back & forth all match long !!

 

[tjmac]

Thats what I was referring to, is all the extraneous BS that makes one course with the same Troyer MUCH harder or easier than the next.

Absolutely no BS in saying two courses with the same Troyer rating can be very different in actual difficulty as shown by scores on the course.

Course 1 has a 30T and consists of two 30 yard shots at 1" targets.
Course 2 has a troyer rating of 30 and consists of 1 target at 10 yard with a 1" zone and target two has a 1" zone set at 50 yards.
Same difficulty, but I am assuming most shooters, including myself, would opt for Course 1.
Short courses I know, but just to illustrate the principle.

Scott actually explained this quite well with a wide standard deviation in distance.

Tim

 

[Centercut]

Absolutely no BS in saying two courses with the same Troyer rating can be very different in actual difficulty as shown by scores on the course.

Course 1 has a 30T and consists of two 30 yard shots at 1" targets.
Course 2 has a troyer rating of 30 and consists of 1 target at 10 yard with a 1" zone and target two has a 1" zone set at 50 yards.
Same difficulty, but I am assuming most shooters, including myself, would opt for Course 1.
Short courses I know, but just to illustrate the principle.

Scott actually explained this quite well with a wide standard deviation in distance.

Tim

Yes, Scott's explanation was excellent, and I totally understand. I hadn't thought of your example, but that seems plausible. What I was thinking are the subjective Troyer points for "wind". The point I was referring to are the wind call from the MD setting up the course, and the type of wind that may be present. They may both have the same objective wind amount, but one is relatively constant, and one is swirling. Obviously, one is harder than the other by a significant amount, but they would get the same rating...

 

[tjmac]

Most people do not even consider the wind factor and simply give the T factor with none of the multipliers used. At most they say that it was more difficult than the listed T rating due to wind, etc.

Tim

 

[Motorhead]

Most people do not even consider the wind factor and simply give the T factor with none of the multipliers used. At most they say that it was more difficult than the listed T rating due to wind, etc.

Tim

Out west .. such a venue that gets all sorts of TROYER difficulty corrections added ... High Angle Shots, Wind, during the entire course of fire INCLUDING Offhand and Kneeling.
What a Match it is !!!!! This being the Nevada State / GP held late spring in Battle Mountains back Country.

 

[tjmac]

Out west .. such a venue that gets all sorts of TROYER difficulty corrections added ... High Angle Shots, Wind, during the entire course of fire INCLUDING Offhand and Kneeling.
What a Match it is !!!!! This being the Nevada State / GP held late spring in Battle Mountains back Country.

That sounds like an amazing time. I have been at a few matches where the wind blows you around on standing and kneeling shots and that sure adds some challenge and enjoyment if you look at it that way. The 2010 US Nationals at Maryland comes to mind shot during the tail end of a hurricane. I learned a lot during that match. A west coast "Guy" that was used to shooting in wind won that one.

I seldom list the T factor of a course, unless someone asks, because after you have shot a course, you know if it was tough or not. Plus the T-factor for the same course changes from day to day, so I just do not bother. Lazy? Maybe.

Tim