JSB .22 Redesign

[Centercut]

Here we go again.

These both came in SHALLOW tins.
It looks like you can get different types of SHALLOWS, may be it will be the same with the DEEP and GRANDS. God help us

View attachment 441475

And you’re surprised why?

I have ten tins of Grand 28.55 grain on the way, am hoping they are better and don’t throw flyers. I don’t want to have to drop $5K on a Thomas HP since they don’t throw flyers even with the old RDMonster versions.

 

[Gear_Junkie]

We need more pellet manufacturers. OR we need current pellet manufacturers to step it up.

Unfortunately, most individuals seeking precision find that @HN Sport pellets simple don't shoot as accurately as JSB.

There's also the matter of ballistic coefficient. For whatever reason, generally speaking, the H&N pellets in similar weights don't have BCs as high as JSB pellets (not necessarily the .22 MRD).

And yes, I linked H&N into this very intentionally.

@HN Sport , this is a huge opportunity for you guys. Make a .22 pellet in the 25-29grain range with a BC up around 0.05-0.06, THAT CAN BE TRUSTED TO PRODUCE LONG RANGE ACCURACY (say 100yards) AND NOT CHANGE EVERY TIME WE BUY A NEW BATCH, and you will sell massive amounts of them.

I know single competitors that spend thousands of dollars on their chosen long range pellet. Multiply that by the market and you guys are selling some pellets!

Amen to that!

 

[jeffhernandez]

And you’re surprised why?

I have ten tins of Grand 28.55 grain on the way, am hoping they are better and don’t throw flyers. I don’t want to have to drop $5K on a Thomas HP since they don’t throw flyers even with the old RDMonster versions.

Not surprised, but you know, I did not want to lose hope, specially given the massive ammount of advertisements they did for the release of these new pellets.

It is what it is I guess.

 

[thomasair]

Asking a manufacturer to jump through extra hoops when they already can't keep up with the current demand demand is never going to happen. They just got everyone that was totally disgusted with monsters to buy them all over again by changing a sticker.

Mike

 

[nervoustrig]

They just got everyone that was totally disgusted with monsters to buy them all over again by changing a sticker.

^ Puts the laugh back into slaughter.

 

[HN Sport]

We need more pellet manufacturers. OR we need current pellet manufacturers to step it up.

Unfortunately, most individuals seeking precision find that @HN Sport pellets simple don't shoot as accurately as JSB.

There's also the matter of ballistic coefficient. For whatever reason, generally speaking, the H&N pellets in similar weights don't have BCs as high as JSB pellets (not necessarily the .22 MRD).

And yes, I linked H&N into this very intentionally.

@HN Sport , this is a huge opportunity for you guys. Make a .22 pellet in the 25-29grain range with a BC up around 0.05-0.06, THAT CAN BE TRUSTED TO PRODUCE LONG RANGE ACCURACY (say 100yards) AND NOT CHANGE EVERY TIME WE BUY A NEW BATCH, and you will sell massive amounts of them.

I know single competitors that spend thousands of dollars on their chosen long range pellet. Multiply that by the market and you guys are selling some pellets!

We cannot make this kind of pellets with the machines we have.

 

[Franklink]

We cannot make this kind of pellets with the machines we have.

Very unfortunate. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

 

[Solo1]

Well I bought 2 tins of each deep shallow and 28. I sorted 1 tin of each by weight and for the most part according to my scale they varry .4 to .8 grains worst were the 28 though still better of the last tin of mrds I sorted which were over 1 grain variance . Head size seemed pretty consistent but I did not do a full tin

 

[KodiakJac]

Here we go again.

These both came in SHALLOW tins.
It looks like you can get different types of SHALLOWS, may be it will be the same with the DEEP and GRANDS. God help us

View attachment 441475

So, this means JSB is either mixing new shallows with old shallows, or they have a mix of dramatically different new shallow dies. I hope it's the former and not the latter, as eventually consistency should improve as they deplete their old shallow inventory.

But I'll wait until reviewers are reporting one shallow design, not two. I'll not be a guinea pig wondering which is the new shallow design vs. the old shallow design. What a nightmare. No, what a joke JSB has turned into. Which one is the new shallow design, JSB?

 

[jeffhernandez]

So, this means JSB is either mixing new shallows with old shallows, or they have a mix of dramatically different new shallow dies. I hope it's the former and not the latter, as eventually consistency should improve as they deplete their old shallow inventory.

But I'll wait until reviewers are reporting one shallow design, not two. I'll not be a guinea pig wondering which is the new shallow design vs. the old shallow design. What a nightmare. No, what a joke JSB has turned into. Which one is the new shallow design, JSB?

I can't tell which one is the new shallow since both arrived in tins labeled as shallow.
We will have to ask

 

[KodiakJac]

We will have to ask

I did just that. I just asked "JSB/Predator Official" on the Hard Air Magazine forum...

https://community.hardairmagazine.com/threads/which-is-the-new-jsb-mrd-25-39-shallow-design.1906/

We'll see what they have to say.

 

[Solo1]

Well I just measured the depth quick on a dozen shallow pellets and they were close to .08 + or - .007 or there about they are a little hard to measure with extreme accuracy

 

[Gear_Junkie]

We cannot make this kind of pellets with the machines we have.

Have you considered using softer lead and performing tests to see if it makes the pellets more accurate in a wider range of guns?

I'm a huge fan of your pellets, and have found that you have the best consistency among the various pellet manufacturers. I've bought Field Target Trophy and Baracuda Match pellets years apart and have found them to be extremely consistent. These pellets worked great in my spring guns, but when I transitioned to PCP's, these pellets were no longer as accurate as JSB's. This is with multiple .177/.22 LW cut groove and poly barrels, and CZ barrels. I'm just wondering if using slightly softer lead would make the pellets more accurate in a wider range of guns.

 

[steve123]

JSB must have some funky people working there that love to mess with peoples heads is all I can figure. Probably some young burn outs wishing they could go home and play video games or old burn outs wishing they could retire and none caring about quality control.

Or is it possible the manufacturer of the molds are that bad at machining, I mean these days it's all done by CNC right, so how can it get messed up so bad?

Obviously not financially feasible but if they could figure out a way to dump each separate pellet from a mold cavity into its own container I think that would solve some of the inconsistency issues.
Then they could charge a bit more for the better shooting ones and a bit less for the poorer shooting ones.

I know in 22rf ammo manufacturing they lot lest and charge more for each better tier of ammo depending on how consistent the precision capability is so this could also be a thing with air rifle ammo as well.

Meanwhile same old same old.

 

[Franklink]

JSB must have some funky people working there that love to mess with peoples heads is all I can figure. Probably some young burn outs wishing they could go home and play video games or old burn outs wishing they could retire and none caring about quality control.

Or is it possible the manufacturer of the molds are that bad at machining, I mean these days it's all done by CNC right, so how can it get messed up so bad?

Obviously not financially feasible but if they could figure out a way to dump each separate pellet from a mold cavity into its own container I think that would solve some of the inconsistency issues.
Then they could charge a bit more for the better shooting ones and a bit less for the poorer shooting ones.

I know in 22rf ammo manufacturing they lot lest and charge more for each better tier of ammo depending on how consistent the precision capability is so this could also be a thing with air rifle ammo as well.

Meanwhile same old same old.

Very same thoughts here Steve. I shared this on the other forum a few hours ago, very similar discussion there...


"I've been blown away that they can't just make identical dies. And this is a JSB problem from long before the .22 MRDs ever existed.

They're always monkeying around with the dies for all their pellets. I can't remember where but I vaguely remember seeing or hearing a JSB rep say that it's impossible to make identical dies......okay, fair enough, perhaps not microscopically identical, but there's absolutely no reason why the dies need to be so drastically different that the pellets coming off them are very obviously not the same shape, just with the naked eye.

The dies are nowhere near within normal tolerance level for machined parts. The dies are simply not the same. The two pellets shown above is a perfect example.

Hobby machinists with cheap lathes are capable of duplicating parts much more closely than JSB is capable of duplicating dies. Something doesn't add up."

 

[Ta-Ta Toothie]

Very same thoughts here Steve. I shared this on the other forum a few hours ago, very similar discussion there...


"I've been blown away that they can't just make identical dies. And this is a JSB problem from long before the .22 MRDs ever existed.

They're always monkeying around with the dies for all their pellets. I can't remember where but I vaguely remember seeing or hearing a JSB rep say that it's impossible to make identical dies......okay, fair enough, perhaps not microscopically identical, but there's absolutely no reason why the dies need to be so drastically different that the pellets coming off them are very obviously not the same shape, just with the naked eye.

The dies are nowhere near within normal tolerance level for machined parts. The dies are simply not the same. The two pellets shown above is a perfect example.

Hobby machinists with cheap lathes are capable of duplicating parts much more closely than JSB is capable of duplicating dies. Something doesn't add up."

That's due to the work force out there. Taking pride in your work is gone and they simply don't care. This is now the norm.

 

[Gear_Junkie]

We can only hope that H&N is taking note of this thread, and the others like it, and seizes an opportunity here to maybe innovate some new products.

 

[nervoustrig]

okay, fair enough, perhaps not microscopically identical, but there's absolutely no reason why the dies need to be so drastically different that the pellets coming off them are very obviously not the same shape, just with the naked eye.

Agreed 100%. It is trivially easy with modern machining and EDM techniques to produce a mold that at least duplicates the basic shape to a degree indistinguishable by the naked eye. So easy that the only explanation for why JSB doesn't is because it is deliberate.

In which case the question becomes why does JSB play around with the geometry? Does it have something to do with the mystery nature of one batch (die A) doing exceedingly well in one barrel but ho-hum in another, but then a different batch (die B) comes along and the barrel preference flip-flops? In other words, might they be introducing variables so there is an array of slightly different pellets, some of which favor certain barrels amidst millions of barrels that have their own manufacturing tolerances and peculiarities?

 

[Franklink]

Agreed 100%. It is trivially easy with modern machining and EDM techniques to produce a mold that at least duplicates the basic shape to a degree indistinguishable by the naked eye. So easy that the only explanation for why JSB doesn't is because it is deliberate.

In which case the question becomes why does JSB play around with the geometry? Does it have something to do with the mystery nature of one batch (die A) doing exceedingly well in one barrel but ho-hum in another, but then a different batch (die B) comes along and the barrel preference flip-flops? In other words, might they be introducing variables so there is an array of slightly different pellets, some of which favor certain barrels amidst millions of barrels that have their own manufacturing tolerances and peculiarities?

And the very next thought with all these variations obviously being intentional.....is it because they have figured out guys buy more pellets when we're trying to find the magic batch (or shape) of that particular pellet that worked so well at some point in the past. If that's the case.....I feel the rage growing....

Are they selling the hope of good pellets, versus just selling good pellets. And does the hope of good pellets drive up sales more than simply selling good pellets.....

 

[Franklink]

In which case the question becomes why does JSB play around with the geometry? Does it have something to do with the mystery nature of one batch (die A) doing exceedingly well in one barrel but ho-hum in another, but then a different batch (die B) comes along and the barrel preference flip-flops? In other words, might they be introducing variables so there is an array of slightly different pellets, some of which favor certain barrels amidst millions of barrels that have their own manufacturing tolerances and peculiarities?

If they've got that good of a handle on the variations that they're intentionally producing them, seems like they should just label the variations as such and sell them that way!

It's currently a dang cracker jack box, never knowing what the "prize" inside the tin is gonna be. And often it's not a prize but a 200/350/500 count pile of dog .