Other Just how much must I pay for "Accuracy" in a PCP gun?

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That would depend on what would you call accurate and how far out you expect to shoot? On the cheaper side you could go with the avenger. 25-30 caliber works for most people. If you go to some of the ranges and you see an air gunner, speak up and ask away, may be even shoot it. I don't know too many people that would turn you down. Most of us air gunners love to talk and show our pcp. If you live close to a place like Pyramid air, Drop in. Before buying make sure that it's going to fill the need your looking for. Good luck in your search. please post what you find?
 
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I'd say you have received some excellent advice through these replies. I think the best was in reply #14 by @elh0102 - airguns will never be as robust, consistent, or as reliable as firearms. But that does not mean that every gun will need constant fussing.

Also, as pointed out, unregulated guns will tend to be more robust and reliable over the long term than regulated guns. But that does not mean that a good regulated gun can't be dead on repeatable for a few years (until the regulator eventually needs serviced), where a good unregulated gun can be so for many more years (I have a Daystate Air Ranger from 2011 that is as rock solid as when I got it without a rebuild yet - but it has been retuned many times for different results, holding said tune/setup until I change it). I have multiple regulated guns that will shoot the first shot dead on after months of no use (and yes, Emu's beloved Sidewinder is one of them - but not the most accurate among them).

I started my PCP jouney with a .22 Marauder, and spent a lot of time making it a very accurate gun - new barrel, valves, regulators, bedded custom stock and lots of TLC. But it can't match the Air Ranger I eventually bought (used) to try out the high end. Better guns are simply better due to many different things (tighter tolerances, stiffer breeches, thicker barrels etc.).

But one thing that has not been talked about enough is that pellets are simply never going to be as accurate at distance as bullets - they are too constrained by their drastically lower BC values, such that we are pretty much talking about almost a log difference here in range, and accuracy at range due to the impact of any variability in wind (which is always varying). And I think the other big thing about this that almost never gets discussed is that we are also a "victim" of the variability of BC between pellets even from the same tin - on a percentage basis, I believe that the BC of pellets varies much more than it does on bullets (due to lighter weight and more complex shapes), and this variability will show up as more variability in drop and wind drift as range increases. It is really just physics. Shooting slugs can lessen this (once everything is set up right for them), but then one is back to the longer range and the risks that brings (including ricochets flying farther too) - pellets have their use, and I do love shooting them.

That said, I have come to think of outdoor pellet shooting as pretty much a scaled version of shooting PBs, and I like that - I can shoot my airguns fully legally in my suburban yard, and have a 55 yard lane to a safe backstop. To me, shooting pellets at that distance outdoors roughly equates to doing the same with rimfires out to at least 150 yards, and most centerfire at 250 - 500 yards or more, depending on ammo. Some might think my comparison yardages are off, but the point is real - pellets are scaled down from bullets in every way, and I like being able to get that challenge at home.

Do the ballistics comparison for your wind conditions, and you will be blown away by how much pellets will move in the wind compared to rimfire or centerfire. And that is before you add on any added variability we might face. But I do love shooting pellets! The reality is that most pellet shooting occurs inside of about 30 yards - many of us go farther, but doing so makes "one ragged hole" results a much rarer event.
 
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The Daystate huntsman is a gun I've been looking at for awhile. Probably the biggest reason I don't own one is that pretty stock will not fit my body and I'd hate to modify it. It is pretty light, unlike most "better" airguns. It is not real powerful but I think it is powerful enough, especially in 177 and probably 22 but 25 seems to be challenging for it. It also does not store a lot of air so shot count is not high but it is efficient even without a regulator. Ed has done some impressive work tuning his. It would be a great hand pump gun and the shot count would not be an issue hunting. Only at target shooting would it seem like a bit of a bother.

I shot my P35-177 this morning to check on my first shot velocity. Unfortunately the chronograph only got the first and third shots. The first was 878 and the third 901. I might need to increase the hammer spring but I would like to see a longer string. 1 of the 4 went off but it wasn't the first. The morning sun was in my eyes and I couldn't see through the scope well. I'm letting the sun get higher at the moment. Wind is low and I want to shoot.

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If you, like me, prefer tradional guns with walnut stocks, consider Air Arms S510, Daystate Revere or Wolverine or BSA R-10. I recently snagged an unregulated Revere at AOA for $899. This hs been replaced by the Regulated model for $1500. AOA has a sale on Wolverines for $1479 which I also had to have. Both of these rifles have match accuracy and will shoot as good as the more expensive guns. The AA S510 is also a great rifle in the same price range. AOA still has some BSA R-10s for $799. They are good shooters with a very attractive stock. You can find some of these for sale on the classifieds for some really good deals. Keep your eyes open. For some reason, shooters today like those testicle (tactical) guns. They are tools and not very good to look at. Welcome to a very challenging and satisfying hobby and throw your ear muffs away.
 
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I'd say you're largely comparing apples to oranges. Just look at the number of parts and compare the level of complexity between a 10/22 and virtually any of the air rifles that have been mentioned here. The two aren't even close, so if you're paying a similar price for them you're almost certainly not getting the same quality. You don't always get what you pay for, but you definitely don't get what you don't pay for and if you want an airgun thats going to compare well with a decent rimfire you're going to end up paying $1200 or more for it.

I also might lower my expectations. For me, I expect a good airgun to regularly shoot MOA at 50 yards and if it can do it at 100 then I'm ecstatic. Sure, I could buy a powder burner that does that for a lot less, but I couldn't shoot it in half the places I shoot my airguns.

Airguns have a lot of advantages over powder burners, dirt cheap ammo, no federal laws to comply with, almost no cleaning required, quiet operation and can be shot safely in more areas. They can't hang with centerfires when it comes to accuracy though and dollar for dollar rimfires still have the edge over airguns when it comes to accuracy, but I do a fair amount of shooting in my basement and I can be confident that an errant shot won't pass through the outside walls of my house. I'm also paying about 1/2 cent per shot with .177, 1 cent per shot with .22 and 8 cents per shot with .30 with my cheapest pellets, all of which are more than adequate for plinking. So I can literally fire hundreds of shots for pocket change,
 
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Sawney Bean said:
I'd say you're largely comparing apples to oranges. Just look at the number of parts and compare the level of complexity between a 10/22 and virtually any of the air rifles that have been mentioned here. The two aren't even close, so if you're paying a similar price for them you're almost certainly not getting the same quality. You don't always get what you pay for, but you definitely don't get what you don't pay for and if you want an airgun thats going to compare well with a decent rimfire you're going to end up paying $1200 or more for it.

I also might lower my expectations. For me, I expect a good airgun to regularly shoot MOA at 50 yards and if it can do it at 100 then I'm ecstatic. Sure, I could buy a powder burner that does that for a lot less, but I couldn't shoot it in half the places I shoot my airguns.

Airguns have a lot of advantages over powder burners, dirt cheap ammo, no federal laws to comply with, almost no cleaning required, quiet operation and can be shot safely in more areas. They can't hang with centerfires when it comes to accuracy though and dollar for dollar rimfires still have the edge over airguns when it comes to accuracy, but I do a fair amount of shooting in my basement and I can be confident that an errant shot won't pass through the outside walls of my house. I'm also paying about 1/2 cent per shot with .177, 1 cent per shot with .22 and 8 cents per shot with .30 with my cheapest pellets, all of which are more than adequate for plinking. So I can literally fire hundreds of shots for pocket change,
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-"if you want an airgun thats going to compare well with a decent rimfire you're going to end up paying $1200 or more for it."
I'm beginning to realize that harsh reality.

-"I also might lower my expectations."
That's a tough one. I'm still having trouble NOT comparing airguns to powder guns. Also, being rather new to the airguns, I'm still having difficulty wrapping my head around having to pay $1200 for a gun that will only shoot mediocre compared to what I'm used to seeing out of powder guns. The first airgun I purchased was a Benjamin Marauder, at about $625 for it on sale. I was sure that something must be wrong with it, when the best groups I could get out of the box were golf ball size at 25yrds. I was comparing it/building my expectation based on what I could do with my $400 10/22s. I honestly expected the Marauder to be able to shoot 1/4" groups at 30 yards. This thread has tempered my expectations, and I will be revisiting that gun.

My whole reason for getting into airguns is that I've always loved to hunt. Which is one of the reasons I settled in Montana after my military career. However, I became a victim of the burn pits in the Middle East (3 tours), and was diagnosed with Lupus, interstitial lung disease, and Lupus Nephritis (Kidney disease), and my lung capacity will not allow me to to run the mountains and chase critters anymore.... but I see/saw airguns as a way to continue at least shooting.

I am so glad that I posted this thread, and so pleased that experienced airgunners are willing to share their knowledge. Yeah, I gotta make some attitude adjustments, temper some expectations, and save my pennies until I can afford one of those $1200+ guns. I gotta sell a couple more knives and convince my Mrs that I "need" a $1200+ air gun! :LOL:
Many Thanks for taking the time to respond!
 
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EdCaffreyMS said:
Let me first set the table... I've been a long-time outdoorsman with a 23 yr military career behind me and have been a "powder gun" shooter for most of my life. In "powder guns," I can pull one out of the box, give them a good cleaning, set up the gun(s), site in, and then count on them to HIT what I am aiming at, with the FIRST shot...EVERY TIME. None of these guns are considered "high end." I have 4 Ruger 10/22 rifles in various configurations, none costing more than $500, and each will put 10 shots in a single ragged hole at 50 yards, with whatever ammo that's compatible. All of my center-fire rifles will do the same, but at 100yds+.

Due to health issues related to my military career, I am 100% disabled and can no longer hunt, but to still be able to "shoot", I turned to "Airguns.".... I started with a few different "Springers". And I still can't understand why those types of "airguns" are even made/sold... unless you just want to solve problems each time you shoot them.

After that, I dipped my toe into the .22 PCP gun ocean... The first was a Marauder, then a Gauntlet 2, then a Notos, a Niksan Ozark, and most recently a Barra 1100z Gen 2.. It took a lot of modification to the Marauder to get "relative accuracy" out of it. I could never get the Gauntlet 2 even close to being "accurate", no matter what I did to it, and thus I no longer even shoot that gun...... money wasted. The Niksan Ozark was an impulse buy and a total waste of money. (plus a very bad experience with the seller) The 1100z was returned under a warranty issue (a new one is currently on its way to me), which leaves the Notos...the least expensive of the lot, and is the ONLY gun out of them all that will consistently put 7 shots (mag capacity is 7) in a single ragged hole at 25yrds, with any pellet I feed it. If this is possible in a sub $275 gun, why is it not demanded/expected in EVERY PCP gun costing more than $1K?

Preferring traditional style guns, the FX DRS recently caught my eye, so I watched videos from Pyramid, and Gateway to Airguns. In the Pyramid video, the host was "wowed" with a 3/8" group off a benchrest. In the Gateway to airguns video, the host louded "accuracy" of the gun, but out of 4 groups....only one was a single "ragged hole" off sandbags. Other groups were "scattered", which makes me question consistency. After checking, I was very disappointed to find that the DRS, in the least expensive version, is a $1k gun.

So, having said all of that, I've read time and again... You have to pay for accuracy in PCP guns. My question is...just how much must an individual pay for a traditional style PCP to get CONSISTENT ACCURACY OUT OF THE BOX without having to test endless pellets and/or make modifications to the gun?? OR does anything like that even exist in the PCP world??

What do I want? As described in the first paragraph, a gun that once "set up" will give me confidence in its accuracy each and every time it's shot... but moreso a gun that I can trust to be accurate on the fist shot... because in most pest/varmint/small game hunting situations, that first shot is the only one I will get.
So far, the Notos is the only PCP I've shot that gives me relative confidence in first shot accuracy, and it's the least money out of all the PCPs I own. However, its downfall is power. I've literally watched pellets bounce off squirrels when the shots were beyond about 35 yards.
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EdCaffreyMS said:
-"if you want an airgun thats going to compare well with a decent rimfire you're going to end up paying $1200 or more for it."
I'm beginning to realize that harsh reality.

-"I also might lower my expectations."
That's a tough one. I'm still having trouble NOT comparing airguns to powder guns. Also, being rather new to the airguns, I'm still having difficulty wrapping my head around having to pay $1200 for a gun that will only shoot mediocre compared to what I'm used to seeing out of powder guns. The first airgun I purchased was a Benjamin Marauder, at about $625 for it on sale. I was sure that something must be wrong with it, when the best groups I could get out of the box were golf ball size at 25yrds. I was comparing it/building my expectation based on what I could do with my $400 10/22s. I honestly expected the Marauder to be able to shoot 1/4" groups at 30 yards. This thread has tempered my expectations, and I will be revisiting that gun.

My whole reason for getting into airguns is that I've always loved to hunt. Which is one of the reasons I settled in Montana after my military career. However, I became a victim of the burn pits in the Middle East (3 tours), and was diagnosed with Lupus, interstitial lung disease, and Lupus Nephritis (Kidney disease), and my lung capacity will not allow me to to run the mountains and chase critters anymore.... but I see/saw airguns as a way to continue at least shooting.

I am so glad that I posted this thread, and so pleased that experienced airgunners are willing to share their knowledge. Yeah, I gotta make some attitude adjustments, temper some expectations, and save my pennies until I can afford one of those $1200+ guns. I gotta sell a couple more knives and convince my Mrs that I "need" a $1200+ air gun! :LOL:
Many Thanks for taking the time to respond!
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Golf ball sized at 25 yards is lowering your expectations too far. That's the kind of accuracy I'd expect from a cheap spring gun. I would expect a $600 PCP to shoot around 2 MOA at 50 yards, meaning most of my groups would be 1 inch or less after I figured out what pellets it liked.
 
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I got a chuckle out of your title, and the comments so far.

The answer to your question is generally, yes, as the price increases, the likelihood and level of precision/accuracy usually does too. Just don't remind a large contingent of field target competitors about it, cuz they get pretty prickly about having that pointed out. He he

Field Target is an arms race.

Yep I said it, and not for the first time. Some sure seem to get heated up about that statement. Others are pragmatic enough to accept reality. When guys are running "bb guns" that cost north of $8-10k, there's not much of an argument against it being an arms race. When I say "arms race"...
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com
 
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EdCaffreyMS said:
:cool::cool:
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4K for a Thomas ... 2k for a RAW

Have owned both ... kept the RAW being just as accurate and IMO a tad easier to do servicing on and more conventional wood or laminate stock. ( Or Chassis option )

Both are STELLAR rigs ... so question here becomes what are you willing to spend ?
As the RAW sits as KING of this @ $$ class of premier target PCP's
And the THOMAS has no rivals in the $$$$ class of premier Target PCP's
 
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Personally, starting around $1200-1400 is my threshold for where the price/performance ratios really start to become evident. And I base that mainly off of a couple solid options in that price range....Taipan Veteran and Daystate Huntsman come to mind.

If you don't mind single shot, and aren't a trigger snob, and really want to prioritize first shot accuracy over other creature comforts, the Air Force lineup, starting around $5-600 is a good option too. Expect to need to do some barrel polishing (or more). But, realistically, Air Force appropriately calls their guns "utility." They're very tool-like, and simply less refined than more expensive options. BUT, they have Lothar Leather barrels, and that's somewhat the airgun industry standard for a gun to be capable of accuracy/precision.

Edit: just remembered you'd like traditional...of the three I mentioned, the traditional option would be the Daystate Huntsman Revere/Regal.
 
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With a few things to keep in mind, the Gamo Urban .22 is an accurate and relatively strong shooting unregulated rifle. To make it shoot:

1. Remove barrel band
2. Either purchase the GTA trigger kit or take the screw from the barrel band and use in the OE trigger to improve
3. Remove that dang pickle (can be an adventure but I am a master of fire and a propane torch)
4. I also bored out the TP a little and turned the hammer in a turn to get 24 shots at 24 fpe on a nice curve





I got two of them on Amazon around $240. Made in England by BSA.
 
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I haven’t read all of this but I think you’re going to have to put in some work just like you do with powder guns. My personal standard is moa accuracy out to 500 yards for a .308 rifle.For each one I’ve had to experiment a bit to find a bullet, weight and powder charge that each gun likes and there isn’t just one load that does it all. Same thing here. You need to find a quality gun that fits your shoulder, a good trigger and sight and find out what pellet that gun likes best. You can spend $2k if you want but there are plenty of good guns under $500. I have a Gauntlet 2 in .25 that is excellent at 50 yards and a Gauntlet, not a 2, in .25 that required a bit of work but is also very good. I have under $600 total in both. Sounds like yours needs some work. There’s a ton of good information here, just take your time and do the research. It sounds like you’re very experienced and you know that simply throwing money at the problem won’t solve it.

Rick H.
 
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