Other Just how much must I pay for "Accuracy" in a PCP gun?

[EdCaffreyMS]

With a few things to keep in mind, the Gamo Urban .22 is an accurate and relatively strong shooting unregulated rifle. To make it shoot:

1. Remove barrel band
2. Either purchase the GTA trigger kit or take the screw from the barrel band and use in the OE trigger to improve
3. Remove that dang pickle (can be an adventure but I am a master of fire and a propane torch)
4. I also bored out the TP a little and turned the hammer in a turn to get 24 shots at 24 fpe on a nice curve





I got two of them on Amazon around $240. Made in England by BSA.

I actually have the Urban on my "wishlist" at Pyramid. You're gonna have to excuse this... but I need clarification on your fixes... What is "Dang Pickle"? And I assume that "TP" is Transfer Port? Funny you mentioned removing the barrel band.... I just put a replacment/One that holds both air tube and barrel shroud tightly on the MRod....setting it up for a "revisit".

 

[steve123]

Much like PB's it's a lottery whether you get a good one or a bad one.

Let's take your 10-22's for example and add in ammo quality into the mix. You could have one that shoots 2" groups at 50Y with bulk ammo but it'll do 1" with match ammo, this is more like a guy that has lost the lottery, and BTW I have experienced this exact thing with a old 10-22. Is that considered precise, no not really, but it'll do for head shots on squirrels in trees 20 yards away.

10-22 example #2. Let's make it easy and say you have the normal run of the mill for precision. I have one like this now which does 1.1" at 50y with bulk ammo and 3/4" with good ammo as far as averages. It's no match gun but it's not bad either, so I paid $20 bucks in the lottery but won my money back.

I know guys that have higher end factory, and aftermarket, 10-22's, that are about twice as precise as mine with good ammo. Some aftermarket 10-22's cost thousands of dollars but they have high end components like Bartlein barrels, and the list goes on. One friend has a factory 10-22 that has better than normal precision for a stock 10-22 so he won the lottery. He paid $40 bucks but won $200 back.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Welcome Ed!

I love knives, especially sole authorship Art Knives, so I have great respect for them and the craftsmen that have this talent.

I'm coming in late, haven't read most of this thread, but let me just add one thing right now, and that is pellets have very low ballistic coefficients and blow quite a bit in the wind, both to the side and also in the vertical. The farther out the target is the more exaggerated this becomes. A 22rf bullet has 4 times the BC of a middle weight 17 cal pellet, which is hugely different. A recent example was at a FT match in which the wind was gusting into the mid 20's. I had to aim 3-5 inches away from the center of the kill zone to knock some of the 55 yard targets down. With a 22rf it would have been 1.25-1.75" out. Also I'm sure the vertical aspect would have been triple what my highly precise pcp FT rifle would be normally.

Being in Montana's winds is one of the reasons my favorite power gun is a 6.5X55 Swede... the BC is off the charts, and being able to load/shoot bullets weights from 120gr for Antelope (We call them "Prairie Maggots") to 140gr for Deer/Elk/Sheep/Moose, they "buck" the wind about as well as anything. I got my first one the hard way.... I had knives in a local Sporting goods store. It got broken into, and they took all of my knives amoung other stuff.
The owner called me, broke the news, and told me I could wait 6+ months for the insurance to pay, OR I had my pick of any rifle on the rack..... I picked a 6.5X55 that had been sporterized by a major company. It's been my "once in a lifetime gun"... the one that kills whatever you aim it at. Since then I've purchased 3 more of the same caliber, but none shoots better than the first one. That was all before the 6.5 craziness happened....and now there are 6.5 x XX all over the place in every shape and size. Off topic.... but yes, I've considered the Urban, and it's saved to my Pyramid wish list.

 

[steve123]

My best advice is to find a good platform to start with, like RAW maybe, have it tuned by someone that knows what they are doing, and hope you win the lottery. Sometimes you might have to acquire a few barrels before you land on one that shoots exceptionally and that goes with ammo too.

Since I haven't had good luck with cheaper airguns in the precision department I went to higher, or highest end, guns.

Oh and slugs, these have higher BC's, and may or may not be as precise as some pellets, but the ones with the most BC blow a lot less in the wind. You'll need faster twist barrels for the longer ones.

 

[steve123]

Being in Montana's winds is one of the reasons my favorite power gun is a 6.5X55 Swede... the BC is off the charts, and being able to load/shoot bullets weights from 120gr for Antelope (We call them "Prairie Maggots") to 140gr for Deer/Elk/Sheep/Moose, they "buck" the wind about as well as anything. I got my first one the hard way.... I had knives in a local Sporting goods store. It got broken into, and they took all of my knives amoung other stuff.
The owner called me, broke the news, and told me I could wait 6+ months for the insurance to pay, OR I had my pick of any rifle on the rack..... I picked a 6.5X55 that had been sporterized by a major company. It's been my "once in a lifetime gun"... the one that kills whatever you aim it at. Since then I've purchased 3 more of the same caliber, but none shoots better than the first one. That was all before the 6.5 craziness happened....and now there are 6.5 x XX all over the place in every shape and size. Off topic.... but yes, I've considered the Urban, and it's saved to my Pyramid wish list.

I was sponsored by a wealthy friend, who collects old sniper rifles, one being a SM M41B, which was very precise for what it was, and I set the Vintage Sniper silhouette record with it up to that date at Ben Avery a decade or so ago. I used 140gr Berger HB at 2650 fps. Edit to add, yeah a higher BC going pretty fast helps!

My go-to long range 6.5 is a 6.5 SAUM using those projectiles at 3240 fps.

Best not to discuss PB's here though so I'm tapping out.

 

[steve123]

So far the best bang for the buck I've had in pcp's is the AGT products. Three of them worked great, were fairly precise, and nothing to complain about. But I won the lottery when I ordered my last one, a Vulcan 3 in 25 cal from Derrick Wall, which he tuned for Altaros slugs, and it shoots right up there with my most expensive pcp at 100Y, except it uses 60gr slugs with a higher BC of .245 BC.

 

[3Crows]

I actually have the Urban on my "wishlist" at Pyramid. You're gonna have to excuse this... but I need clarification on your fixes... What is "Dang Pickle"? And I assume that "TP" is Transfer Port? Funny you mentioned removing the barrel band.... I just put a replacment/One that holds both air tube and barrel shroud tightly on the MRod....setting it up for a "revisit".

The M-Rod has a shrouded barrel that marginally free floats inside the shroud. The M-Rod needs the barrel band to stabilize the shroud for anything other than bench shooting. M-Rod with high rise side lever breech and 3D printed barrel band below. (The resident know it all says 3D printed or plastic bands will result in inaccurate rifles, I am a hunter not a bench shooter and I can assure the grouchy "expert" that that band has shown absolutely zero POI shift from -5F to 110F.)



The Gamo and M-Rod share many things in common, though the M-Rod is actually a little simpler mechanically and more robust. However, one thing they do not share is a shrouded barrel. The Urban is unshrouded and the short little barrel is sufficiently stiff that it does not need or want a band. Remove the barrel band for best accuracy.

Yes, TP is transfer port. A large ID port is available from that place in England but I just drilled mine out, if I recall to .161 (?).

The dang pickle is that ugly thing that passes as a built on suppressor. I hate that ugly and to me ineffective thing and removed it from both of my Urban rifles. I used an eBay adapter and a carbon fiber sleeve of the barrel OD. You can see the carbon fiber sleeve (optional) and the eBay adapter that is threaded 1/2X20 for use with an effective suppressor.



The problem I had with the pickle is that early on I double fed a pellet and then shot the baffles out of the pickle and then what do I do? It also blew a chunk out of the end pice. I removed the pickle by cutting it off clear of the barrel muzzle and then used a propane torch to melt the rest, grabbed it with a gloved hand and yanked it off. Yes, I removed the barrel to use the torch and since I had it apart I bored the TP and barrel port and cleaned up the inner workings.

 

[PowderBurnt]

6.5X55 Swede

Best gun I've ever owned.

 

[T3PRanch]

Airguns are like 1911's they are ammo picky. Find a "load" that works and stick to it. I hand cast most of my projectiles. I find a cast 50 grain .25 ACP works great in most of my airguns.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Many Thanks to everyone who responded with their knowledge and insights! I've learned a lot! Moreso, I'm in the process of revisiting my first PCP.... The Marauder. Now that I have the FX chrony, I think I can wrap my head around what folks are/were talking about with "shot curves", etc. I guess I always knew, but since I was dealing with "airguns".... thought it didn't matter. Now I see how it matters way more with airguns than with powder guns.
Again... MANY THANKS!!

 

[Struckat]

Oh Ed, those knives…can not look at them again.

i too am fairly new to pcp. I bought my first one 3 years ago after reading all the pcp threads on the internet.

I wanted one that shoots with minimal tinkering. I set my mind on a Daystate or an Air Arms and stalked the classifieds for a used one.

The AAs500 came up first. $500, I couldn’t pass it up. Nothing to adjust, loves most 18 grain pellets. If I had paid full retail price, I would not be disappointed.
The quality makes me feel unworthy.

I bought a referb Mrod last fall and it is really nice. The Walther barrel li,es a lot of diff pellet. Yesterday I encountered some POI shift. I may need to look i to a barrel band.

I really like the comment about air being scaled down pb shooting. I was always an open sight guy so my airguns seem more accurate to me, but I know that’s not the case.

An unregulated gun will have a sweet spot. My Mrod is a .22 and 3000 psi, but only pump to 2600. Anything over that is a waste as that is where the sweet spot begins.
Your Mrod likely suffers from hammer bounc. I installed a SSG in mine and that really improved the consistency and efficiency.

Markhooper mentioned AirForce. Frowned on by many, but the one I have is fantastic. There is no barrel shift and it super adjustable.

Springers? I won’t say I have had zero issues with my two HWs, but they are wonderful now.
HW95 is first shot accurate every single time…as long as am consistent in the “Hold.”

Inexpensive guns can be good, but you usually have to make them that way. Due to personal bias, I will not buy guns from certain countries, even though some can be good.

 

[Jay308]

I think I would get a RAW, it’s a powerful, reliable, accurate, set and forget. If you don’t mind the length.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

You folks have set me on a new course. I have looked and looked..... and finally fallen in LOVE! It's older, more "classic" than "sassy".... and I just can't get it outta my head!

I've searched through the forums and read whatever I can find on it. The only thing I've heard repeated on the negative side is the regulator being replaced with a Huma? I am assuming that's a brand of regulator? (sorry... new enough to not know all the jargin). While I don't know all the "big dogs" on this porch, I read an article on the Hard Air website, and they loved it. And frankly, so do it.

https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/precharged-pcp/bsa-r10-se-walnut-air-rifle-.22/

Happy to hear your thoughts and input!

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Oh Ed, those knives…can not look at them again.

i too am fairly new to pcp. I bought my first one 3 years ago after reading all the pcp threads on the internet.

I wanted one that shoots with minimal tinkering. I set my mind on a Daystate or an Air Arms and stalked the classifieds for a used one.

The AAs500 came up first. $500, I couldn’t pass it up. Nothing to adjust, loves most 18 grain pellets. If I had paid full retail price, I would not be disappointed.
The quality makes me feel unworthy.

I bought a referb Mrod last fall and it is really nice. The Walther barrel li,es a lot of diff pellet. Yesterday I encountered some POI shift. I may need to look i to a barrel band.

I really like the comment about air being scaled down pb shooting. I was always an open sight guy so my airguns seem more accurate to me, but I know that’s not the case.

An unregulated gun will have a sweet spot. My Mrod is a .22 and 3000 psi, but only pump to 2600. Anything over that is a waste as that is where the sweet spot begins.
Your Mrod likely suffers from hammer bounc. I installed a SSG in mine and that really improved the consistency and efficiency.

Markhooper mentioned AirForce. Frowned on by many, but the one I have is fantastic. There is no barrel shift and it super adjustable.

Springers? I won’t say I have had zero issues with my two HWs, but they are wonderful now.
HW95 is first shot accurate every single time…as long as am consistent in the “Hold.”

Inexpensive guns can be good, but you usually have to make them that way. Due to personal bias, I will not buy guns from certain countries, even though some can be good.

Thanks for the kind words about my Knives.

I’m being a stalker on the classifieds myself! I fell in love with the BSA R10 SE.

Anyway, you mentioned a barrel band for your Marauder… if you have friends or family that have a 3D printer, you can download a ready to go file off the internet for free. Search for ”3D printed Marauder accuizer” (may have misspelled that last word, but I also found it using the search term ”Benjamin Marauder barrel band”.)
It’s just a slightly tapered ring that will slide over the barrel shroud, and fill the void inside the barrel band, as well as center the shroud within the barrel band. I got it in most of the way with finger pressure, but had to use a small hammer and a piece of micarta (or anything that won’t scratch the shroud… even a piece of hardwood such as oak, hickory, etc.)
My son in law printed it for me… he said it cost about 15 cents to make… and about a hour for the machine to print it.

 

[Struckat]

Ed, do you have a file you can share?

I have not had opportunity to touch an R10. The only knocks I have heard is that there isn’t much room to get more power out of the “Dated” platform. But BSA is not about big power.

Similar to my AA, it is what it is.
This is a shot from last year’s lawn chair safari.
It’s a gentleman’s sport.

 

[Trucker3573]

The chrono is definitely an absolute must. I know many responses elude to paying for accuracy. I whole heartedly disagree. Any notion that price and accuracy are some sort of linear thing is just not true. There may be some argument to building a 100 yard bench competition gun but for practical purposes the argument just doesn’t hold water. Just watch YouTube at what these 300-400 dollar guns are doing. From personal experience I can say I owned an original 22 avenger that was as accurate as anything I’ve owned for 50-70 yard shooting. What goes up with price is build quality and shooting experience. I guess the probability of getting a lemon should be lower as well. In a nutshell you do not have to pay a lot of money when just looking at accuracy in this hobby.

 

[Sawney Bean]

The chrono is definitely an absolute must. I know many responses elude to paying for accuracy. I whole heartedly disagree. Any notion that price and accuracy are some sort of linear thing is just not true. There may be some argument to building a 100 yard bench competition gun but for practical purposes the argument just doesn’t hold water. Just watch YouTube at what these 300-400 dollar guns are doing. From personal experience I can say I owned an original 22 avenger that was as accurate as anything I’ve owned for 50-70 yard shooting. What goes up with price is build quality and shooting experience. I guess the probability of getting a lemon should be lower as well. In a nutshell you do not have to pay a lot of money when just looking at accuracy in this hobby.

I think that depends on what kind of accuracy you want. In his original post the OP mentioned one hole groups at 50 yards. That kind of accuracy will cost you both in money and more importantly in time.

 

[Struckat]

My opportunities are limited for long range practice. So it is difficult to speak directly to longer ranges. My AA may make tiny groups at 50, but I am just not that good.

Most of my set up and testing is in the shooting parlor @10m. If the gun and pellet don’t like each other it will show up at that distance. It doesn’t necessarily tell me how the work at longer ranges, but if I can’t kill the dots at 10m there is no point in shooting the combos at longer ranges. When on safari I usually have opportunity to sight in at the top of the arc, usually 10-15 clicks down depending on the gun.

My $300 Mrod punches dots at 10m as effectively as my AA. In a few weeks I will find out how it goes from 25-50 yards.
My AA and 18’s set the bar pretty high.

 

[dgeesaman]

I've noticed that the Daystate Huntsman has been mentioned several times, an it does tick off the box of being traditional style. There seems to be several variations of that gun.... are folks saying any of them are "good"...or is it just a specific variant?

Pretty much all Huntsmans are excellent. Very well made and not over complicated.

There is a lot of value in a PCP that doesn’t overcomplicate things. I find that more reliable and accurate although the downside is tuning them is more laborious. My answer to that is to have a professional do my tuning anyway.

 

[Chief Ten-Beers]

Keep the advice on guns coming! Every gun that anyone has mentioned, I've looked up, and it seems, with the exception of the Zelos, every gun that folks are calling "accurate" are +/- about $1,500. Hard for me to swallow that one....at least YET.

If anyone likes custom knives, and might wanna trade an "accurate" air rifle, preferably of traditional style, for a custom knife...that's a possibility. I'm one of less than 200 ABS Mastersmiths in the world, and I make everything from daily carry straight knives and folders to very "high end" collector pieces. Just a thought. you can find my website in the signature block and see what I do. If you're interested, we can certainly talk about it.

In the meantime, I'd like to say a HUGE THANK YOU for all the input so far. I think I've learned more via this thread than in all the online research I've done... and that's been considerable. I have to admit that I have a Love/Hate relationship with YouTube..... likely because I have Bladesmithing students who show up for a class, and everything they've learned has been from "YouTube University"...... and I always seem to spend the first day of class UNLEARNING them, before I can teach them anything.

For an inexpensive Non-Regulated, you may want to look at the JTS Airacuda Standard. It is only around $300 and I have had great success with Mine. I have not shot it yet this year due to weather "too cold" lol But this one of Many targets that look like this. You may want to give them a look as well. Good Luck!