Other Just how much must I pay for "Accuracy" in a PCP gun?

[EdCaffreyMS]

Let me first set the table... I've been a long-time outdoorsman with a 23 yr military career behind me and have been a "powder gun" shooter for most of my life. In "powder guns," I can pull one out of the box, give them a good cleaning, set up the gun(s), site in, and then count on them to HIT what I am aiming at, with the FIRST shot...EVERY TIME. None of these guns are considered "high end." I have 4 Ruger 10/22 rifles in various configurations, none costing more than $500, and each will put 10 shots in a single ragged hole at 50 yards, with whatever ammo that's compatible. All of my center-fire rifles will do the same, but at 100yds+.

Due to health issues related to my military career, I am 100% disabled and can no longer hunt, but to still be able to "shoot", I turned to "Airguns.".... I started with a few different "Springers". And I still can't understand why those types of "airguns" are even made/sold... unless you just want to solve problems each time you shoot them.

After that, I dipped my toe into the .22 PCP gun ocean... The first was a Marauder, then a Gauntlet 2, then a Notos, a Niksan Ozark, and most recently a Barra 1100z Gen 2.. It took a lot of modification to the Marauder to get "relative accuracy" out of it. I could never get the Gauntlet 2 even close to being "accurate", no matter what I did to it, and thus I no longer even shoot that gun...... money wasted. The Niksan Ozark was an impulse buy and a total waste of money. (plus a very bad experience with the seller) The 1100z was returned under a warranty issue (a new one is currently on its way to me), which leaves the Notos...the least expensive of the lot, and is the ONLY gun out of them all that will consistently put 7 shots (mag capacity is 7) in a single ragged hole at 25yrds, with any pellet I feed it. If this is possible in a sub $275 gun, why is it not demanded/expected in EVERY PCP gun costing more than $1K?

Preferring traditional style guns, the FX DRS recently caught my eye, so I watched videos from Pyramid, and Gateway to Airguns. In the Pyramid video, the host was "wowed" with a 3/8" group off a benchrest. In the Gateway to airguns video, the host louded "accuracy" of the gun, but out of 4 groups....only one was a single "ragged hole" off sandbags. Other groups were "scattered", which makes me question consistency. After checking, I was very disappointed to find that the DRS, in the least expensive version, is a $1k gun.

So, having said all of that, I've read time and again... You have to pay for accuracy in PCP guns. My question is...just how much must an individual pay for a traditional style PCP to get CONSISTENT ACCURACY OUT OF THE BOX without having to test endless pellets and/or make modifications to the gun?? OR does anything like that even exist in the PCP world??

What do I want? As described in the first paragraph, a gun that once "set up" will give me confidence in its accuracy each and every time it's shot... but moreso a gun that I can trust to be accurate on the fist shot... because in most pest/varmint/small game hunting situations, that first shot is the only one I will get.
So far, the Notos is the only PCP I've shot that gives me relative confidence in first shot accuracy, and it's the least money out of all the PCPs I own. However, its downfall is power. I've literally watched pellets bounce off squirrels when the shots were beyond about 35 yards.

 

[Avator]

Hey Ed...
Have you tried different pellets in these guns? Some guns tend to be "pellet picky". Sample packs can be bought with a little searching or you could ask a member to put a sample pack together for you.
Another note... most guns need a barrel cleaning out of the box. Swarf and shipping protective grease (or whatever that gunk is) needs to be cleaned out. Some guns have imperfect crowns and need to be dressed.
Of the guns you mentioned, I have heard many success stories on accuracy.
I get it on the springers... there is a learning curve to shoot them but you should be getting better results from PCP.

 

[maxtrouble]

@EdCaffreyMS - Welcome to Airgun Nation. Out of all the rifles mentioned, I am surprised that the Marauder disappointed you. Marauders are known for their consistency and accuracy. Some rifles are very pellet picky and will only be accurate with one pellet. Have you tried different brands and weights to see what it likes?

I would get the Marauder sorted out first. You will learn a lot about PCP's while going down the PCP rabbit hole. A sorted out Marauder will give 1 MOA accuracy at 50 yards and beyond.

My friend was shooting his Marauder this weekend and was keeping up with my $2k Ghost at 55 and 78 yards.

A good springer made by Weihrauch will stack pellets all day long at 55 yards and you can pass them down to your kids.

 

[dgeesaman]

Let me first set the table... I've been a long-time outdoorsman with a 23 yr military career behind me and have been a "powder gun" shooter for most of my life. In "powder guns," I can pull one out of the box, give them a good cleaning, set up the gun(s), site in, and then count on them to HIT what I am aiming at, with the FIRST shot...EVERY TIME. None of these guns are considered "high end." I have 4 Ruger 10/22 rifles in various configurations, none costing more than $500, and each will put 10 shots in a single ragged hole at 50 yards, with whatever ammo that's compatible. All of my center-fire rifles will do the same, but at 100yds+.

Due to health issues related to my military career, I am 100% disabled and can no longer hunt, but to still be able to "shoot", I turned to "Airguns.".... I started with a few different "Springers". And I still can't understand why those types of "airguns" are even made/sold... unless you just want to solve problems each time you shoot them.

After that, I dipped my toe into the .22 PCP gun ocean... The first was a Marauder, then a Gauntlet 2, then a Notos, a Niksan Ozark, and most recently a Barra 1100z Gen 2.. It took a lot of modification to the Marauder to get "relative accuracy" out of it. I could never get the Gauntlet 2 even close to being "accurate", no matter what I did to it, and thus I no longer even shoot that gun...... money wasted. The Niksan Ozark was an impulse buy and a total waste of money. (plus a very bad experience with the seller) The 1100z was returned under a warranty issue (a new one is currently on its way to me), which leaves the Notos...the least expensive of the lot, and is the ONLY gun out of them all that will consistently put 7 shots (mag capacity is 7) in a single ragged hole at 25yrds, with any pellet I feed it. If this is possible in a sub $275 gun, why is it not demanded/expected in EVERY PCP gun costing more than $1K?

Preferring traditional style guns, the FX DRS recently caught my eye, so I watched videos from Pyramid, and Gateway to Airguns. In the Pyramid video, the host was "wowed" with a 3/8" group off a benchrest. In the Gateway to airguns video, the host louded "accuracy" of the gun, but out of 4 groups....only one was a single "ragged hole" off sandbags. Other groups were "scattered", which makes me question consistency. After checking, I was very disappointed to find that the DRS, in the least expensive version, is a $1k gun.

So, having said all of that, I've read time and again... You have to pay for accuracy in PCP guns. My question is...just how much must an individual pay for a traditional style PCP to get CONSISTENT ACCURACY OUT OF THE BOX without having to test endless pellets and/or make modifications to the gun?? OR does anything like that even exist in the PCP world??

What do I want? As described in the first paragraph, a gun that once "set up" will give me confidence in its accuracy each and every time it's shot... but moreso a gun that I can trust to be accurate on the fist shot... because in most pest/varmint/small game hunting situations, that first shot is the only one I will get.
So far, the Notos is the only PCP I've shot that gives me relative confidence in first shot accuracy, and it's the least money out of all the PCPs I own. However, its downfall is power. I've literally watched pellets bounce off squirrels when the shots were beyond about 35 yards.

Just like powderburners every barrel is different and every tin (or sleeve) of pellets has their own accuracy potential.

While I don’t see many airgunners churning through barrels, probably because there is almost no wear, I do see an accuracy difference from one barrel to the next. With production airguns they send out every barrel whether or not it is above or below average as long as it’s not outright defective.

Then just like handloading, every PCP has a favorite ammo and an optimal tune for that ammo.

If you buy a Thomas, Mike does all of that to a fairly exhaustive degree before it leaves him. Mikes waitlist and costs reflect that level of work. Other airguns have similar tuning testing and setup although not likely to such a degree. There are plenty of good tuners also for most major brands (RAW is super-well supported and one of my favorites). You could a lot worse than to buy a tuned and tested RAW from Martin Rutterford - Its easy to spend more but hard to find something more accurate.

I’d send the Marauder out for a tune and get their honest to goodness no-sh$t assessment of its accuracy.

 

[Ranchibi]

Welcome! The higher end guns, usually 1500 and up have machined parts instead of pot metal and known manufacturers barrels, triggers (true adjustable match grade 2 stage pulls in ounces instead of pounds) and workmanship that is excellent compared to less costly PCP's. This usually translates to better accuracy at longer ranges and over time plus a better shooting experience and shot cycle. RAW's are built in the US and if you call Martin the original builder, he will build one to your specs. FX Crown Gen2's, AAA Evol Paradigm's are also US built and LIGHT, Daystate Wolverines and Air Arms s510's and all have been around for a long time, tried and true platforms. These are as good as it gets for mechanical traditional rifle PCP's. Then there are electronic PCP's like Daystate Redwolf and Skout (bullpup though). Purchasing used from a reputable dealer or person is another option amd will save you some money. One can purchase a less costly PCP that will give similar accuracy but maybe groups will open up at longer distances and parts will not last as long or parts will not be available. I send my RAW to Martin or Motorhead for servicing and Martin has all the parts and knowledge to fix any issue at an affordable price, shipping is the biggest cost. Budget is the determining factor in all this! If one can afford a higher end PCP the mantra is buy once cry once! I wish you well in your shooting endeavors....

 

[3Crows]

I would sort the M-Rod out for now. I have four M-Rod .25s, each a little different and each with a particular mission in mind and all four will tear ragged holes at 25 to 30 yards. All shoot MOA or close to 50 yards. I use them for pesting/hunting, not bench rest. Pellets, an opinion, just not going to shoot MOA art 100 yards, at least not here in Kansas wind. In fact, I shot my M-Rods at an indoor 100 yard range and they all scored MOA at 50 yards. A loose MOA, but they were there.

Accuracy with the M-Rod is multifaceted. One important thing to do is to make sure the barrel is not flopping around inside the shroud, making sure the barrel band is set properly and either using an O-ring inside the barrel band or usign a Tim Him zero slop barrel band. A despite the forum know it all, I have found using an additional plastic (printed or not) barrel band beneficial to stability. Unless regulated, two of my M-Rods are, you will have to learn to take into account the velocity curve.

There is no way in Hades I could ever deal with that FX DRS with the fake magazine hanging out of the bottom. Hunting or bench, I want a clean bottom to grip. And where there is smoke there is likely fire, there is some reason behind all of the FX leaking and POI change complaints seen on these forums.

Someday there may be a PCP that looks like a rifle, has good power, under 7 pounds and good shot count and accuracy and can hold up to life in the real world without being carted about like a fragile egg lest it be damaged or loose POI. Right no that does not exist compared to the PB you have shot in the past.

The China stuff, you will never be happy if you have owned fine PBs.

 

[JimD]

Your Notos was made by Snowpeak (aka SPA), a Chinese manufacturer who sell most of their guns through other airgun suppliers like Umarex and Stoeger. I think the may have also made your Bara. I have three SPA bullpups, all P15s in different calibers. All are accurate with their preferred pellet. Wind makes a really big difference, however, and a slight breeze could make the best of them beyond a ragged hole at 25 yards. That might be part of your issue but the fact that you find the Notos decent suggests you may understand this (it affects powder burners too, just not as much due to better bc). My opinion is SPA airguns are the best at the lower end of the price spectrum. The Stoeger Ranger and Scout have thumbhole stocks but are otherwise conventionally laid out. Both are more powerful than the Notos. I suspect it would not be hard to tune either to 30-40 fpe. 800 fps or better on pellets up to about 21 grain. Not super powerful but plenty for targets and small game.

I think of accuracy more in terms of 30 yard challenge targets (a fun activity, there is a huge thread on this site with the targets available for download and printing). The 10 ring is 1/8th of an inch in diameter. Another member keeps the spreadsheet of results which includes gun, scope, ammo, and velocity. Lots of good info on what works. My P35-25's best is a 194, my P35-177 has shot a 197, and my P35-22's best is a 200. Any of them would give me a ragged hole 5 shot group at 30 yards a lot of the time. They are all also reliable to put the first shot consistent with the sight-in. Collectively they've taken over 50 squirrels for me. The Stoeger Bullshark is the P35 with a 40mm longer barrel and a different stock. I don't have a Scout or Ranger but the videos I've seen suggest a lot of their parts may be the same as the P35.

Hopefully if you spend 3 times as much or more on an airgun you get more consistent quality including accuracy. I only have one, it came to me with some issues which are now resolved. Accuracy is about the same as the best P35. If they all shoot that well, it would be a few points better on the 30 yard challenge than the average of my P35s. But is 3 points on that target worth 3 times the price? My Caiman is a nicer gun but also heavier in addition to the price. I am not a fan of higher priced airguns at this point. I think they are good and probably generally better but for most things I think SPA airguns are good enough.

 

[Troy Bakel]

@dgeesaman is absolutely correct.

I have a 0.177 FX IMPACT M3 with two complete 600 mm barrel systems.

One has a carbon fiber sleeve bonded to the liner with the liner indexed at 6 o'clock. The other is stock and neither is tensioned.

Both barrel systems produce 5 round groups indoors at 20 yards of 0.199" to 0.191" edge to edge using diabolo pellets.

Each barrel system requires a different tune and a different pellet to do so.

I have tested 21 different 0.177 caliber diabolo pellets of various dimensions and weights including wadcutters.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

 

[Vetmx]

Taipan. If you have powder burner standards, almost every other Hype gun is going to disappoint you. I think AGT Airguns are close to a Taipan in almost being a firearm, but not quite. But close enough to not pass up a good deal on one. Especially if you want to chase the slug dragon. If you want to up the budget even more then you jump to AAA or RAW. They are also PCP’s that are as close to the “firearm life” as you can get.

My DRS was a great shooting gun once I ironed out the first slow shots issue. I didn’t have it long enough to see how long it would hold it’s zero. I sold it for other reasons.

 

[tdog1]

Get a daystate huntsman Safari 22 and be done.

 

[Blejda]

My most accurate cheap airgun was Bsa Bucaneer.The same rifle as Gamo Coyote.
One hole groups at 30 and half inch or under at 50.
The problem was it didn't hold zero.

My Fx Streamline's and Dreamline classic.
All under 1000$.
Great accuracy even at 100 and beyond.
Great triggers and no problems with either.

Regards Marko

 

[Solo1]

Im sold on the brk ghost. Least amount of maintenance most consistently accurate airgun i have and i have 2. One is my dedicated field target gun the other is my hp gun that i switch between 177, 22, and 25 cal. It isn’t cheap but both of mine are 3 yrs old and all i do is shoot them.

 

[Perle]

JIMD. Mentioned the Stoeger scout. In .25 it’s stock tune will get ya 40 fpe with the accuracy you desire. Slightly more than a notos … and made by the same company.

 

[elh0102]

Ignition fired firearms are so different from air rifles that a comparison is very difficult. Precision accuracy in metallic cartridge rifles is mostly dependent on good ammo. BR shooters spend countless hours in preparing brass and handholding ammo that is as near perfect as possible. The rifle just needs a good barrel.
Air rifle accuracy depends on a system of valves, springs and O rings, most of which have limited life and high failure rates, comparatively speaking. Everyday, reliable precision accuracy with air rifles is a challenging goal that is seldom attained. If you enjoy the process of chasing that goal, you'll love it. If you're more intent on hitting your target without the need to be concerned with all the minutia that is required, it will be a frustration. That's the real cost you pay, and it doesn't end. Good luck.

 

[EPG]

Let me first set the table... I've been a long-time outdoorsman with a 23 yr military career behind me and have been a "powder gun" shooter for most of my life. In "powder guns," I can pull one out of the box, give them a good cleaning, set up the gun(s), site in, and then count on them to HIT what I am aiming at, with the FIRST shot...EVERY TIME. None of these guns are considered "high end." I have 4 Ruger 10/22 rifles in various configurations, none costing more than $500, and each will put 10 shots in a single ragged hole at 50 yards, with whatever ammo that's compatible. All of my center-fire rifles will do the same, but at 100yds+.

Due to health issues related to my military career, I am 100% disabled and can no longer hunt, but to still be able to "shoot", I turned to "Airguns.".... I started with a few different "Springers". And I still can't understand why those types of "airguns" are even made/sold... unless you just want to solve problems each time you shoot them.

After that, I dipped my toe into the .22 PCP gun ocean... The first was a Marauder, then a Gauntlet 2, then a Notos, a Niksan Ozark, and most recently a Barra 1100z Gen 2.. It took a lot of modification to the Marauder to get "relative accuracy" out of it. I could never get the Gauntlet 2 even close to being "accurate", no matter what I did to it, and thus I no longer even shoot that gun...... money wasted. The Niksan Ozark was an impulse buy and a total waste of money. (plus a very bad experience with the seller) The 1100z was returned under a warranty issue (a new one is currently on its way to me), which leaves the Notos...the least expensive of the lot, and is the ONLY gun out of them all that will consistently put 7 shots (mag capacity is 7) in a single ragged hole at 25yrds, with any pellet I feed it. If this is possible in a sub $275 gun, why is it not demanded/expected in EVERY PCP gun costing more than $1K?

Preferring traditional style guns, the FX DRS recently caught my eye, so I watched videos from Pyramid, and Gateway to Airguns. In the Pyramid video, the host was "wowed" with a 3/8" group off a benchrest. In the Gateway to airguns video, the host louded "accuracy" of the gun, but out of 4 groups....only one was a single "ragged hole" off sandbags. Other groups were "scattered", which makes me question consistency. After checking, I was very disappointed to find that the DRS, in the least expensive version, is a $1k gun.

So, having said all of that, I've read time and again... You have to pay for accuracy in PCP guns. My question is...just how much must an individual pay for a traditional style PCP to get CONSISTENT ACCURACY OUT OF THE BOX without having to test endless pellets and/or make modifications to the gun?? OR does anything like that even exist in the PCP world??

What do I want? As described in the first paragraph, a gun that once "set up" will give me confidence in its accuracy each and every time it's shot... but moreso a gun that I can trust to be accurate on the fist shot... because in most pest/varmint/small game hunting situations, that first shot is the only one I will get.
So far, the Notos is the only PCP I've shot that gives me relative confidence in first shot accuracy, and it's the least money out of all the PCPs I own. However, its downfall is power. I've literally watched pellets bounce off squirrels when the shots were beyond about 35 yards.

Hi Ed,

You are looking for consistent 1st shot accuracy from a PCP…

I’d recommend that you acquire a good quality UNREGULATED PCP rifle. The Daystate Huntsman Revere (or Regal - same rifle with bolt action) is one such option, there are others.

Regulated PCPs in essence have two air chambers (plenum and air reservoir) operating at two different air pressures. This added layer of complexity (regulator) to keep the plenum at the necessary air pressure can contribute to 1st shot inaccuracy - usually a low 1st shot because plenum air pressure dropped while the gun was not used for a few days… this low 1st shot plenum pressure is like having your powder burner cartridge “leak” some gunpowder if you left in sitting in the rifle for a few days.

An unregulated rifle uses essentially the entire air reservoir as its “plenum”, so its less susceptible to 1st shot dropped velocity resulting in low PoI.

The shot-to-shot velocity of an unregulated rifle varies as the pressure in the air reservoir changes slightly with each shot. This can be a disadvantage when precision target shooting - unless you carefully monitor and adjust (add air) the air reservoir pressure.

For target shooting, regulated rifles should have an advantage over unregulated as each shot should maintain the same velocity, until the air cylinder pressure drops below the regulator pressure - at which point its time to refill the rifle with air.

The low 1st shot issue doesn’t really impact target shooters, as they can dry fire before beginning a session and they will be taking sighter shots to judge wind conditions before beginning to shoot any targets for score.

So my recommendation was based on my understanding that you were seeking “consistent 1st shot accuracy” - i.e. in a hunting or pesting situation where you would not have the luxury of dry firing or taking practice shots before getting down to business.

-Ed

…

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Hi Ed,

You are looking for consistent 1st shot accuracy from a PCP…

I’d recommend that you acquire a good quality UNREGULATED PCP rifle. The Daystate Huntsman Revere (or Regal - same rifle with bolt action) is one such option, there are others.

Regulated PCPs in essence have two air chambers (plenum and air reservoir) operating at two different air pressures. This added layer of complexity (regulator) to keep the plenum at the necessary air pressure can contribute to 1st shot inaccuracy - usually a low 1st shot because plenum air pressure dropped while the gun was not used for a few days… this low 1st shot plenum pressure is like having your powder burner cartridge “leak” some gunpowder if you left in sitting in the rifle for a few days.

An unregulated rifle uses essentially the entire air reservoir as its “plenum”, so its less susceptible to 1st shot dropped velocity resulting in low PoI.

The shot-to-shot velocity of an unregulated rifle varies as the pressure in the air reservoir changes slightly with each shot. This can be a disadvantage when precision target shooting - unless you carefully monitor and adjust (add air) the air reservoir pressure.

For target shooting, regulated rifles should have an advantage over unregulated as each shot should maintain the same velocity, until the air cylinder pressure drops below the regulator pressure - at which point its time to refill the rifle with air.

The low 1st shot issue doesn’t really impact target shooters, as they can dry fire before beginning a session and they will be taking sighter shots to judge wind conditions before beginning to shoot any targets for score.

So my recommendation was based on my understanding that you were seeking “consistent 1st shot accuracy” - i.e. in a hunting or pesting situation where you would not have the luxury of dry firing or taking practice shots before getting down to business.

-Ed

…

WOW! Thanks a million for that info! Being a newer PCP guy, I bought into the hype of "Regulated!" "Regulated!" and just thought that those guns would be "better" because of all the hype..... so now I have something more to think about/consider.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

WOW! You folks are AWESOME! Thanks for all the thoughtful responses (and Please Keep them coming!)
Every gun you folks are mentioning.... I'm looking up and checking out..... I get the impression that the more "tactical" style guns tend to be the most popular?

I guess the reason I like the more traditional styles is because for about 20 years of my military career, I was carrying some type of "tactical" firearm every day..... and now I'd prefer a style of gun that doesn't remind of that.

I also would like to say thanks for helping a Newbie learn the ins and outs of airguns!
Many Thanks!

 

[EPG]

WOW! Thanks a million for that info! Being a newer PCP guy, I bought into the hype of "Regulated!" "Regulated!" and just thought that those guns would be "better" because of all the hype..... so not I have something more to think about/consider.

You are welcome… as two Ed’s are better than one

 

[MongooseV8]

This is going to stir up some feelings in some members here, but there is no air rifle that will keep up with a mediocre modern PB when it comes to accuracy.

What we consider accurate in air rifle world is simply bigger groups compared to PB. If you are trying to chase the same size groups you are used to it will drive you insane. 1moa is pretty dang good in an air rifle.

That being said, there are certainly some good budget pcps that perform well above their price point. The BSA/Gamo rifles are one example I have had great success with.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Hey Ed...
Have you tried different pellets in these guns? Some guns tend to be "pellet picky". Sample packs can be bought with a little searching or you could ask a member to put a sample pack together for you.
Another note... most guns need a barrel cleaning out of the box. Swarf and shipping protective grease (or whatever that gunk is) needs to be cleaned out. Some guns have imperfect crowns and need to be dressed.
Of the guns you mentioned, I have heard many success stories on accuracy.
I get it on the springers... there is a learning curve to shoot them but you should be getting better results from PCP.

I've only tried a total of 3 different pellets in any of the guns I have. I do always clean a gun when it comes out of the box, in the case of the Notos, and the Barra, had some pretty "chunky" swarf/ junk come out of the barrels. What a learning curve there is on airguns!