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Large air reservoirs in Competition - unfair advantage?

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Centercut

Centercut

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Jun 9, 2017
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I've been observing the trend towards larger and larger air reservoirs (bottle and tubes) recently. And I was pleasantly surprised that EBR limited the amount to 580cc so that the dual "boobie" bottle mods are no longer allowed. Very good call. Now the shooter that (erroneously) feels that shooting faster is better will have to refill every 25 shots if they are shooting over 1000 fps in .30 caliber. That makes it a trade-off, and they don't get something for nothing (degraded wind performance notwithstanding).

So I've been thinking, since I "only" get a little over 4 magazines per 250 bar fill (36 to 40 shots with 44.75 JSB) with my .30 FX Bobcat Mk2, and RMAC allows the 1.16 liter amount with the "boobie" bottles, why can't I strap a 680cc paintball bottle to the stock of my Bobcat for the 100 yard event? I don't see why that would be a problem, since I'd have the stock 480cc plus 680cc, for a total of 1160 cc, or 1.16 liters. As long as its strapped to the gun, and when lifting and moving the gun the bottle also moves, its considered a part of the gun. It would certainly look funny, but then again, so do the "boobie" bottles... ;) "Tethered" is a separate tank or bottle not attached to the gun and connected with a hose. And now I wouldn't be at an unfair advantage from the huge air reservoirs allowed there...

The right thing to do would be to adopt the EBR rules, but that won't happen since the tournament sponsor sells the "boobie" conversion kits... Thoughts?
 
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I agree with the 580cc limitation that is more than enough for more than 25 shoots @ 1000 fps if you want (actually around 32-35 on my impact at least). I do not see any advantage other than adding weight to the dual tank vs the 580cc tank. But I do not see a problem either. Is good to draw a line tho ... 

Different games different rules ;)

Edit: With the 0.30 cal 44gn




 
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I don’t see how having a smaller bottle is a disadvantage? You have 30 minutes to shoot and my small non boobie bottles didn’t limit my shooting abilities at RMAC. The most difficult part of shooting RMAC was reading the wind at 100 yards.

I have never shot EBR, but RMAC was a blast and a serious challenge for me. I actually shot extremely well and was super happy. That was my first competition and am looking forward to more competitions like upcoming EBR.

Gary
 
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Appreciate the input Gary and Edosan. I totally agree that the "wind guessing" was the biggest part of the competition. However, what if you were next to someone that had over twice the air capacity as you. And while it was very windy, there were a couple of times in your relay where it died down for 60 or 90 seconds. And you were at a point that you needed to refill, and he didn't? I'd call that an advantage... IMHO.

Either limit the amount of air reservoir, or allow tethering. Either way makes it more fair, and isn't that the objective in competition?
 
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Think it has something to do with Daystate/Brocock/AoA vs FX?
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Probably, but it does make sense and obviously levels the playing field. I mean, really, where is the cut off? Just allow tethering and be done with the argument and limitations. Next we're going to see triple bottles, or dual 1 liter bottles. Where does it stop? ;)
 
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Appreciate the input Gary and Edosan. I totally agree that the "wind guessing" was the biggest part of the competition. However, what if you were next to someone that had over twice the air capacity as you. And while it was very windy, there were a couple of times in your relay where it died down for 60 or 90 seconds. And you were at a point that you needed to refill, and he didn't? I'd call that an advantage... IMHO.

Either limit the amount of air reservoir, or allow tethering. Either way makes it more fair, and isn't that the objective in competition?As a complete
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I've not competed in the EBR or RMAC arena but I agree that more air capacity in the gun the better, for the reasons you point out. But then again (and its part of the game), if I had an older regal that was good enough to compete (on target) I may be able to shoot as well but your Bobcat would have close to the same advantage over me. Only real point being that that part of the game these comps are promoting new guns/accessories (thus the prize money) . Not purely the shooters ability or a guns accuracy. Of course those things help (significantly) in these comps. 

As a complete outsider, I don't see why tethering should be excluded. Well, other than the fact that they want to promote newer guns with higher air/shot capacity.....

I
 
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So I'm going to buck the trend in this thread here and respectfully disagree with you Ccut, and say that I don't like the EBR 580cc cap rule, or the way it was implemented. Let me unpack that a bit: 

First, you're absolutely right that more capacity IS an advantage. I'm not sure if I'd tack the word "unfair" to it though. As grsanderson noted, you can compete and win without it. I would argue that the point of these competitions is both the glory of the competitors but also to drive airgun technology. We've seen this in many respects lately, changing what calibers are common, giving us new barrel technologies, increasing magazine size, making guns easier to tune, etc. It is all pushing airgun technology forward for the benefit of all of us, so I think an important part of the point is technological advantage. 

On the other hand, if you think the point is shooter skill alone, and you think performance advantages introduce an unfair element, the most logical solution would be to require all the shooters to use the same rifle, preferably prepped by the event hosts. Sort of like the Volvo Ocean Race, everyone is therefore running the same equipment and it is "fair." 

But your point about taking something to the extreme is well taken. Why not tethered rifles, or a "benchrest" specific "rifle" that has an adapter to fit a full size SCUBA tank under the barrel? Clearly there has to be a limit, on this we agree. 

In the case of EBR specifically, I think the rule change was implemented poorly though. First off, it was given with way too short notice, so at least one forum member here had her competition rig blocked with only a couple months to go based on the rule change. That is unfair, especially since there are some pretty strong rumors circulating that this rule change was done specifically to kneecap one airgun company in favor of another which would be more profitable for AoA. My other issue is limiting by capacity. What good does that do? Why was that picked? What if some company developed a cylinder which was 580cc and ran 500bar rather than the typical 250? That'd be even more "unfair" as it'd hold roughly the same amount of air as twin 250bar tanks, but would be even less accessible to other shooters/brands as the filling equipment required would be even more specialized and expensive. So do you ban that next? What about integrated reservoirs? What about if your gun has a 580cc reservoir and a 580cc plenum? The point I'm trying to make here is twofold: first, there is always a workaround. Second, we WANT technological developments which come out of smart competition rules. 

My proposal? Three things. First, put a weight cap on all competition rifles in fully loaded on-the-line configuration. This keeps rifles in benchrest classes from becoming ridiculous stationary pieces. Second, institute a bounding box rule, that is to say there is a box of XxYxZ dimensions, and your ready-to-shoot rifle must fit in it. This will prevent ridiculous side by side bottles and such. Third, require all rule changes to be announced a full 12 months in advance. This gives shooters and manufacturers plenty of time to develop new technologies and tune guns for competition without fear of a last minute rule change blocking them. 

The point of all of this is to get technologies that improve the sport for those of us who hunt or shoot recreationally to trickle down from the competitions. So a gun with a 680cc bottle for example, would be a nice innovation if it were well integrated. The Uragan for example showed a long bottle can be functionally integrated into a gun. Or what about a bullpup which places air both in front of and behind the grip rather like the Impact? There are lots of possibilities, and lets be honest we all want more air, so by all means we should encourage brands to give us exactly that so long as it isn't some ridiculous competition bench gun. 

Just my 2c, or perhaps given the post's length it is a full 20c. ;) :p I hope it all makes sense and is fair anyway. 
 
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STO, good points all with your $2. ;) I think we need to decide, do we go NASCAR or do we go Formula 1? Limited rules, or anything goes? I for one would like to be able to tether my gun, but that's just me. And of course you can win without massive air capacity. Skill and luck both come into play when there is unpredictable swirling winds at 100 yards. I'm sure Tiger Woods in his prime could have won with a set of $100 Dunlop golf clubs from K-Mart.... 

PS, your Levitas moderator is awesome! I thought the box was empty when I picked it up, its that light, and also works about the same as my DonnyFL Tatsu as far as perceived noise reduction on my .25 Vulcan Tactic.
 
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Considering all your questions and rules suggestions for EBR, maybe you should form a sanctioning body for the sport as there is none.
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Great idea! The events shot at EBR that don't have a sanctioning body are the 100 yard EBR event, the American Field Target (AFT) and the Speed Silhouette event. We should standardize the rules for each so that when we show up we know the rules and know what to practice towards. Would love an AFT series of tournaments where it most closely simulates real world airgun hunting like the AFT at EBR. I've shot Silhouette before, but the only place I've shot Speed Silhouette is at EBR. The most fun event there. I also though the mano-a-mano Speed Competition at RMAC was a blast! The Precision Rifle Competition is now available at NRL-22 events, similar to the PRC at RMAC. This event requires more shooting skill than any of the usual events we see at EBR or RMAC.
 
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I totally agree with one sanctioning body a 1 set of rules for 2-3 classes within BR same for knockdown/speed events and possibly slug etc. but you have to remember EBR, RMAC, and a couple other events around the country are manufactures/dealer sponsored competitions and cater their rules around products they sell and service! So until there is a common sanctioning body as “USARB” as an example? Hate to be blunt but I guess if you compete at RMAC run a fx so Earnest can tune it or replace parts etc. or if you go to ebr run a Daystate so they can fix or supply parts for your gun! Also if you want to be fair about all these competitive events than hold an event more centrally located so a larger percentage of shooters can attend “more competition!” But I understand it is what it is... if I go to any event I know I probably don’t stand a chance? and it won’t be because of product or rules. “It’s the nut behind the but”
 
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I agree with John in Ma that there should be a sanctioning body and one set of rules for all of the shoots and I agree that Tethering should be aloud as it makes all guns equal in that respect, Setting a Ft. Lb limit will equal it even more. If it truly is a contest to showcase the brand being sold by the sponsoring retailer then it will never be made a even playing field. It appears the Pyramyd Cup is going to be a better test perhaps as No particular brand is being touted , we shall see!!!
 
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