Law of diminishing returns

[cavedweller]

A very long time ago I created a some what odd thread: How to select your #1 primary rifle / FT rifle when you have over 20 wonderful <20 ftlb shooters at your disposal? I took my own advice and the results are very interesting. I will preface the 3 pictures with this, I have whittled the field of contenders down from over twenty to just three and all three finalists shoot within a 1” square at 60 yards.
The final three are
A .177 Daystate Sapphire a $3500. Gun, using a sightron 4-20x50 S-tac scope
A .177 Brocock Ghost Carbine a $2250. Gun, using a sightron 10-50x60 FT scope
A .177 custom built Crosman HFT Challenger a $1269. Gun. using a sightron 4-20x50 S-tac scope

All three shoot equally well from bench or sticks BUT in field target or pesting we have to take some forced position shots.
Being as my right side has some Neuro motor damage, this means a gun has to work not just from a bench, but also offhand in such a way as I can have even a remote chance of hitting what I am aiming at.

The Test: 10 shots each, scopes at 16x pwr and in the standing position, 25 yards, no wind, morning light.

In order of shooting:

#1 Ghost,
#2 Sapphire,
#3 Crosman Challenger.

One huge factor in this test is how quickly my injured muscles fatigued. This probably gave the ghost the edge and the ghost was also the easiest to load. Tomorrow, time permitting, I will shoot the same 3 guns but reverse the order to see how much my injuries / positional fatigue affected the outcome. The Ghost also had a different scope although set to 16X.

 

[dgeesaman]

Oof, that's a pretty Daystate.

I'm a nerd; I'd dig out my Labradar or measure drops at 55y to determine which one is attaining the highest real-world ballistic coefficient. (I always assumed my rigs shot the 10.3's faster/flatter than 13.4's, but testing showed they had the same drop to 55y - which means the 13.4 had higher BC with no additional holdover - a clear edge to the 13.4's).

Then if there's no clear winner, I'd measure which gun produces the most consistent muzzle velocity and downrange velocity (which is the consistency of BC).

Of course standing position is a personal preference. I don't mind weight as long the center of gravity is in close to me. And the stock needs to agree with me ergonomically.

David

 

[Arzrover]

That's pretty nice shooting with the Ghost...

Interesting way to choose... very valid though. Offhand with some of my FT rifles over the years has been difficult... other rifles, pretty good. I tend to take the eeny meeny miney moe route but if I'm really serious, it'll probably be my USFT... just too dependable good to ignore. I only have 13 contenders though...

Nice Sapphire!

Bob

 

[bucketboy]

Try knocking the zoom down to 6x -10x this helps for a couple of reasons, firstly you don’t over think the shot, secondly there is less parallax error at lower magnification.


Bb

 

[Ranchibi]

Wonderful test and great shooting while STANDING! I don't think I could hit the paper at all standing and I have no excuse or no neuropathy issues, just mental ones....

 

[Franklink]

It's been fun to "watch" your process from afar. You've certainly cycled through about all of the usual suspects when it comes to guns for field target.

I'm with you though, I've found the Ghost to shoot quite nicely from the offhand position.

 

[boscoebrea]

What I take from this :all are nice PCPs,you shooting is good,I have a stock Crosman Challenger anyways say to myself,"why spend more money for accuarcy at the range I am shooting it.".16 power offhand ,wow,I also think if you can lower the power you would do better,muscle problem are not that shooting shows a calmness in your hold...chit ,I be shaking too much at 10x You have great taste in PCPs

 

[cavedweller]

Try knocking the zoom down to 6x -10x this helps for a couple of reasons, firstly you don’t over think the shot, secondly there is less parallax error at lower magnification.


Bb

In HFT we are not allowed to adjust the scope, thus the 16x for the testing

 

[BC]

In HFT we are not allowed to adjust the scope, thus the 16x for the testing

Hey Rudy, I believe the AAFTA rules state no more than 16x while shooting hunter. You can not touch the elevation wheel ( clicking ), but I dont think and I may be wrong, you could probably turn your mag down if it helps your standing. As long as when you turn it back up, it goes back to max 16x. But what do I know,......haha BC

 

[bucketboy]

In HFT we are not allowed to adjust the scope, thus the 16x for the testing

Most hft shooter here shoot lower magnification

 

[Franklink]

I've heard varying interpretations of whether or not Hunter class can turn down from 16x to take their forced position shots.

I'd like to know the official answer.

 

[cavedweller]

I've heard varying interpretations of whether or not Hunter class can turn down from 16x to take their forced position shots.

I'd like to know the official answer.

I agree - I’ll send a request to the BOG or???

 

[cavedweller]

I've heard varying interpretations of whether or not Hunter class can turn down from 16x to take their forced position shots.

I'd like to know the official answer.

I just asked the Baton Rouge Cajun Classic Match Director this and this is the response:
Yes. As long as he lets his squad know what he is doing with the scope.

 

[cavedweller]

I've heard varying interpretations of whether or not Hunter class can turn down from 16x to take their forced position shots.

I'd like to know the official answer.

Next question - does turning down a scope magnification make a shooter any more or less steady? Dunno?

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

Next question - does turning down a scope magnification make a shooter any more or less steady? Dunno?

I guess we need 3 more groups out of you at lower magnification!

 

[Franklink]

Next question - does turning down a scope magnification make a shooter any more or less steady? Dunno?

For me, 100%

Not more steady, just perceived to be more steady when looking through the scope. With high mag I find every little movement is exaggerated, and the crosshairs zigzag back and forth. With reduced magnification it's easier to keep the crosshairs in the kill zone (or the desired holdover point if not clicking. )

 

[Franklink]

I just asked the Baton Rouge Cajun Classic Match Director this and this is the response:
Yes. As long as he lets his squad know what he is doing with the scope.

From what I've seen, it's mostly a match director, case by case thing. The places where I shoot monthly matches allow the Hunter class guys to also turn down their magnification for forced position shots. But I've seen comments online to the contrary. So I assume other clubs disallow it.....?

 

[cavedweller]

For me, 100%

Not more steady, just perceived to be more steady when looking through the scope. With high mag I find every little movement is exaggerated, and the crosshairs zigzag back and forth. With reduced magnification it's easier to keep the crosshairs in the kill zone (or the desired holdover point if not clicking. )

How far do you reduce your magnification?

 

[rcarlisle]

I'm no competiton shooter, but I do find reducing magnification helpful with taking an offhand shot. How far I zoom out will depend on how far I am shooting and how much reduction in magnification produces an acceptably stable sight picture.
Tangentially, have you ever thought to yourself, "Geez, that group looks big!" only to realize it is actually quite small when you go to collect the target? I've been shooting pistol in my basement most of the winter and when I've gone out with a long gun, it's been the Mrod with aperture sights. The other day, I got out to play with the DreamTac, which is scoped, shooting at 25 yards and 6.25 fpe. It was a bit breezy for such a light tune, so pellet on pellet wasn't really happening for me and 5 shot groups looked pretty big at 14x. I was relieved to see the groups were actually pretty acceptable to the naked eye for shooting off the knee in light wind.

 

[Franklink]

How far do you reduce your magnification?

10x seems to be a happy medium. Less and the kill zone starts to look too small, more and the scope sway feels like watching an earthquake.