Lead and its impact on raptors

[boscoebrea]

To bring this home. My girlfriend's brother was shot,the bullet was too close to his vitals to take out,he did live another 20 years before he died, cause, liver damage from lead poisoning...
I also lost a best friend from asbestos poisoning.
Sun radiation causes problems with our skin.37 doses of radiation have caused me problems, but I am alive and doing good.
Some things are relative, and some may not be, but when poisons hit home; You become more sensitive to them and the harm they can cause.

 

[JimD]

I'm sorry your loved one was impacted by lead exposure. The little bit of research I've done, now, indicates in many cases lead will leave our bodies with urine or feces but if not, as would seem to be the case for a bullet, it is absorbed by the bones and hangs around.

I hope my comments do not create the impression that I think lead exposure is totally OK for people or animals. I do not think that. I think lead based paint has hurt many children and lead piping has too. I also accept that lead left in dead animals by hunters has hurt birds of prey. But I think the lead in dead animals can be at least reduced by measures other than banning lead projectiles (no more varmint bullets for big game and possibly non-lead projectiles in animals you intend to leave in the environment). I also think there needs to be a comparison of the benefit of a ban to the cost of a ban that I am not aware has occurred. I am still not worried at all by any trace amount of lead I get from dead game animals. I also think any change in lead level of the environment in general by a stray bullet or pellet falling to the ground is essentially neglible for nearly the entire planet. Backstops at shooting ranges and other high projectile areas would be an exception and that ground should be treated as hazardous waste IMHO. I am 100% against a decision to banish lead projectiles that relies on an emotional reaction to the observation of dead birds from eating lead. I don't think the bird deaths are trivial but we need to consider measures other than an outright bad and also the magnitude of the benefits versus the magnitude of the costs. For airguns it would make our sport much more challenging and potentially significantly less enjoyable. I don't want that to happen for a poorly considered action as appears to have happened in California.

 

[KitCarson16]

I simply cannot resist. I hope the moderator is in a good mood.

Lead has a fatal impact upon raptors. Not saying anything.
Best fatal lead dose for raptors eating chickens is simple.
One highly accurate air rifle.
One shovel
And a vow of silence.
The above is fatal to raptors.

Cheers
Kit

 

[silvershooter589]

Good reason to use big bore .357+ solid slugs for chipmunk hunting. Guaranteed pass through.

Let's focus our criticism on those .177 pea slingers.

 

[Adolf]

I know this topic has been discussed here before. It would be great for companies to step up and provide better non-lead ammunition. Squirrels shot with lead are poisoning reintroduced condors still in southern CA even after the lead ban. Rodents shot with lead ammo should either be disposed of or we should be using non lead ammo. This shouldnt be a contentious issue. I agree with others that we need to be proactive on this issue

I wrote this srticle about 5 years ago. The revelation tor me was how much lead scatters around a carcass when elk or deer shot with powder burner. I wonder if anyone knows whether shedding of lead into the carcass similarly takes place at the lower velocities of airgun lead. https://horsesidevetguide.com/Save+Golden+Eagles+with+Lead+Free+Bullets

Constantly handling lead is dangerous, better we start asking for polymer.
Hi. I am worried about led poisoning by pellet handling and lead gas because the friction in the barrel. Add to that the poisoning of what we hunt, which goes not only in the projectile trajectory wound, but also travels much faster through the nervous system, so you are basically eating an animal whose cells have a poisoning alarm.

Taking all into consideration it make much sense to have Polymer pellets for PCP guns, as there are in firearms. And the more I think about it does not make any sense to pay for been exposed to a known nasty toxic as lead, carcinogen, etc.

 

[Adolf]

This thread reads like a enviro-activist troll. The OP starts of with a statement, then refers to his own work as support, then asks if there is a correlation to airguns.

The tone and organization of the statements does not appear to be from a genuine member of the airgun community. I urge caution in responding to troll efforts from the "Anti" groups.

I have been hunting since a teenager in the country and later Army and some competitions. But before it was firearms. Now I like the sharpshooter calculations that need to happen for long distance PCP airguns that today are reaching hundreds of yards; because the diferent grains for each caliber, pressures, etc. Also when traveling internatinally no need for permits. But I dont thing that is a smart thing for us to get used to have led in our hands and in the game we hunt. Is kind of dumb in fact. What we should be doing is asking for Polymer pellets, slugs, etc. The science and technology is out there to please a market demand.

 

[Adolf]

I duck, pheasant and upland bird hunt. The lead shot ban was a good thing. The birds were ingesting large amounts of lead.

Not near as many airgun enthusiasts ever hunt with there guns. Not nearly the problem of shotgun hunting.

Let's ban plastic bottles instead. They are much more of a problem to the environment.

I have been hunting since a teenager in the country and later Army and some competitions. But before it was firearms. Now I like the sharpshooter calculations that need to happen for long distance PCP airguns that today are reaching hundreds of yards; because the diferent grains for each caliber, air pressures, etc. Also when traveling internationally no need for permits. But I dont think that is a smart thing for us to get used to have led in our hands and in the game we hunt. Is kind of dumb in fact. What we should be doing is asking for Polymer pellets, slugs, etc. The science and technology is out there to please a market demand.

 

[7Green]

I have been hunting since a teenager in the country and later Army and some competitions. But before it was firearms. Now I like the sharpshooter calculations that need to happen for long distance PCP airguns that today are reaching hundreds of yards; because the diferent grains for each caliber, air pressures, etc. Also when traveling internationally no need for permits. But I dont think that is a smart thing for us to get used to have led in our hands and in the game we hunt. Is kind of dumb in fact. What we should be doing is asking for Polymer pellets, slugs, etc. The science and technology is out there to please a market demand.

Ok, I'll bite. The only polymer projectiles I have ever observed has been with bullets coated in it as a lubricant or installed on the tips of bullets, aka, a ballistic tip to achieve higher a bc. Underneath is still a normal copper coated lead round.

Personally, I am unaware of any polymer that can compete with the sectional density of various metals like steel, copper, bismuth, lead, tungsten, etc.... Not to mention, any that can actually withstand the heat generated by some of these cartridges. Afterall, isn't that the reason Hornady developed their Eld-x tipped bullets; because they found the tip was melting at higher speeds and the bc was dropping?

One question I have always pondered is; do copper coated lead pellets have the same issues as standard lead pellets, when it comes to the enviromental impact lead has on game?

 

[7Green]

Other considerations and questions I would have with polymers would be:

If there were a polymer projectile that was higher than 11g/cc (leads sectional density), didn't melt when under extreme friction, heat, and pressure, or disintegrate at impact; would a manufacturer even use it?

Reason being:

How long does it take for polymers to break down in the enviroment or are they like the plastic bottles and bags we routinely toss in the trash? It isn't like we can just go and recycle a bazzillion pellets or bullets When they are scattered about the landscape.

This solution may just generate a new host of problems, even if it were possible.

 

[JimD]

Suggesting polymer projectiles follows the same sort of flawed emotional thinking that can lead to a ban on projectiles. I do not think most proponents are trying to do anything bad but by encouraging laws to be written based upon their poor judgement the effect of their actions is not much short of evil. Polymers are simply not a useful substitute for lead. In addition to being dense (heavy for it's volume) lead is also easily formed. So it is easy to make pellets out of and easy for our airguns to flare out the skirt of so it engages the rifling. Polymers would be even more maleable but are terribly low in density. That is why there are no polymer projectiles for any hunting purpose.

I use copper coated pellets in my Prod because that is what it is more accurate with. The coating is so thin that the rifling penetrates it. If the pellet hits a bone that will also go through the copper. Still there is less lead exposed so at least the rate of lead absorption should go down. I also pick up less lead loading my magazines of that gun but I think that sort of exposure is trivial. Some shotgun shot is also copper coated but that didn't stop the ban on lead shot for waterfowl.

Constant chronic exposure to lead has health impacts. Occasional casual exposure to lead has not been shown to have health impacts. I know that the suggested exposure is zero but I also know there are big limitations in what doctors, despite their very high degree of training, understand about how our bodies work. We need to listen to them but when they are full of smelly stuff... There are, no doubt, people doing dumb things with lead projectiles that need to adjust their actions but in general I firmly believe this is a non-issue. Killing even pest animals just for fun and leaving them for predators to eat may be something that needs to change. But my airgun projectiles will remain lead.

 

[fishing43]

I’m buying a horse and making my clothing from animals that I harvest from a boomerang. Eating only wild grown food. Living in a buffalo hide teepee so I can be totally free from the chemicals that are used in the manufacturing of clothing, autos, building materials, food. Etc!! Thanks for bringing the presumed dangers that are regurgitated by our environmental justice movement.

 

[hdstroker]

I know this topic has been discussed here before. It would be great for companies to step up and provide better non-lead ammunition. Squirrels shot with lead are poisoning reintroduced condors still in southern CA even after the lead ban. Rodents shot with lead ammo should either be disposed of or we should be using non lead ammo. This shouldnt be a contentious issue. I agree with others that we need to be proactive on this issue

I wrote this srticle about 5 years ago. The revelation tor me was how much lead scatters around a carcass when elk or deer shot with powder burner. I wonder if anyone knows whether shedding of lead into the carcass similarly takes place at the lower velocities of airgun lead. https://horsesidevetguide.com/Save+Golden+Eagles+with+Lead+Free+Bullets

Political

 

[BABz58]

I duck, pheasant and upland bird hunt. The lead shot ban was a good thing. The birds were ingesting large amounts of lead.

Not near as many airgun enthusiasts ever hunt with there guns. Not nearly the problem of shotgun hunting.

Let's ban plastic bottles instead. They are much more of a problem to the environment.

Amen to the plastic everything

 

[BABz58]

I know this topic has been discussed here before. It would be great for companies to step up and provide better non-lead ammunition. Squirrels shot with lead are poisoning reintroduced condors still in southern CA even after the lead ban. Rodents shot with lead ammo should either be disposed of or we should be using non lead ammo. This shouldnt be a contentious issue. I agree with others that we need to be proactive on this issue

I wrote this srticle about 5 years ago. The revelation tor me was how much lead scatters around a carcass when elk or deer shot with powder burner. I wonder if anyone knows whether shedding of lead into the carcass similarly takes place at the lower velocities of airgun lead. https://horsesidevetguide.com/Save+Golden+Eagles+with+Lead+Free+Bullets

“WE” need to be proactive?
If you want to accomplish something with reducing lead due to hunting. You are targeting the wrong crowd.
Go find a bird hunting group. Pretty sure most game birds are taken with shotgun. Each shell fired sends 30ish pellets into the air with each shot.


Pellet rifles contribute almost nothing to this issue by comparison.
I hate when people try to lump air rifles in with powder burners.

 

[BABz58]

Yet we call someone a troll when they try to point out a possible problem area that directly relates to us.

But it doesn’t directly relate to us. It’s a very large generalization trying to encompass air guns with firearms.

 

[JimD]

A typical 20 gauge shell with 1 ounce of 7.5 size shot has about 350 individual pellets of lead in it. We used to use those for hunting quail. My uncle and cousin would go through a case of this type of shell in a year. That's 20 boxes of 25 shells with each shell containing about 350 bbs of lead. So about 175,000 little lead bbs by two hunters per year. Sure beats to heck my pellet shooting (most of which is into a pellet trap where I recover the lead). But I don't think all those little bbs spread over hundreds of acres of farm lead really hurt anything either. There are trace amounts of lots of things in the soil.

 

[Firewalker]

The science and technology is out there to please a market demand.

A few things that prick my ears:

Adolf

Polymer

Science

Forgive me if I am out of line but why am I getting a strong "Troll Ai" feeling here?

Specifically, what Polymer are we speaking about?

Plastics?

Mass is mass, we are never going to achieve significant mass with what is currently being touted as a Polymer in today's world.

I engage in a hobby where tubes undergo rapid unplanned dissasembly at 8000fps or faster. The tubes are made of paper, it has little mass so an unprotected person standing 30 feet away is completely safe.

Plastics have low mass, the pellet or slug, likewise undergo rapid deceleration over a much shorter distance than materials with more mass i.e. lead.

There is no "science" that will add mass to a material not in the subatomic level.

 

[Firewalker]

There are trace amounts of lots of things in the soil.

Case in point: The clays range I shoot at gets a lead harvest every few years to reclaim the lead shot that has been used to break clays.

The FEL we use has a reclaiming fixture that removes the top layer of debris, clay, shot, dirt, etc.

The lead has greater mass and falls when the blower ejects the debris.

The operator wears a fitted respirator and support workers wear N95 masks.

Lead swabs used on machinery and clothing shows lead levels under EPA limits.

This spring, we harvested 22,000 lbs of lead pellets. At 300 pellets per #6 shot in a theoretical load being 1 ounce, over 100 million shot were collected.

Scintered tungston runs $20 a pound at market currently. Lead is $1.04 a pound.

The only Polymer that makes sense is tungston and it will destroy a soft pellet gun barrel in just a few shots if they don't bond due to galling.

They would have to be coated, not with metal but a plastic.

Micro-plastics as they degrade.

 

[fishing43]

Haven’t found or observed any bird or animal exhibiting lead exposure? And how would this environmental impact be measured to the average human? I know just believe what we are instructed to believe! I’m not a good follower of the world order!

 

[Firewalker]

Haven’t found or observed any bird or animal exhibiting lead exposure? And how would this environmental impact be measured to the average human? I know just believe what we are instructed to believe! I’m not a good follower of the world order!

Forget that lead is harvested from the earth... it's all around us!

(and I'm normal )